Sarah Payne - awful story

[havanaman]

the sooner we bring something in that excludes you from your human rights when you behave in an inhumane way the better.

that man (any many others) is still living and able to enjoy some form of comfort/enjoyment. the family carry the burden every day. its not justice and with the relative comfort we HAVE to afford these people in HMP.

I understand the sentiment - I have kids and I also don't believe sentences are long enough for serious crimes ... but... the thing about human rights is that you have them because you're human. That's the only qualification. You don't have to earn them and you can't have them taken away. It's that universal quality that makes them work as it means you don't have to trust someone to make a decision on who should have human rights or not.

The bloke should never walk free though - and we do have the laws to ensure that.

 

[Bob Fleming]

I understand the sentiment - I have kids and I also don't believe sentences are long enough for serious crimes ... but... the thing about human rights is that you have them because you're human. That's the only qualification. You don't have to earn them and you can't have them taken away. It's that universal quality that makes them work as it means you don't have to trust someone to make a decision on who should have human rights or not.

The bloke should never walk free though - and we do have the laws to ensure that.

And adhering to them sets us apart from the savages.

 

[Stormo]

I read this this morning and really felt for them all. All out playing as kids and then one of them goes missing. Must've been awful not knowing where she had gone.

Some sick people in this world.

 

[Sunderland Surfer]

Awful and I'm not sure I could live with it. Certainly not as a father. The desire to kill him would eat me up.

I've always tried to be a rational, empathic and compassionate person, but there's something 'different' about sex-crimes that has always made me feel the darkest disgust for the people who commit them, as well as a desire to inflict pain and suffering on them for a prolonged period, which is not like me. Then there's paedophlia, which as a father of two lovely lasses.........I simply can't put into words the searing hatred I have for this bloke and all like him. I just pray that it never happens to me, or anyone else ever again.

 

[flump]

I understand the sentiment - I have kids and I also don't believe sentences are long enough for serious crimes ... but... the thing about human rights is that you have them because you're human. That's the only qualification. You don't have to earn them and you can't have them taken away. It's that universal quality that makes them work as it means you don't have to trust someone to make a decision on who should have human rights or not.

The bloke should never walk free though - and we do have the laws to ensure that.

I understand that completely and agree in the main - my only change would be a very clear set of rules that define behaving in an inhumane way - to be decided and agreed on by the highest court in the land. Where we go from there and what we would be allowed to do should be decided by experts of course. its not surprising that this bill is sometimes referred to a the criminals charter.

Why should you be entitled to be part of the human rights bill when you don't have the decency to behave like one?

I am not going as far to say we should kill these people, but neither should we allow them to sit in their cells and give them the ability to use these laws against us to gain as much as they possibly can, while the victims spend the rest of their lives being tortured by the actions of these animals and having to read or hear about the latest thing the murderer/rapist/etc is fighting for (. its like rubbing salt in the wounds. and allowing them to do this, in my opinion is cruel to the victims, and surely against THEIR humans rights.

 

[SAFC2403]

I read this this morning and really felt for them all. All out playing as kids and then one of them goes missing. Must've been awful not knowing where she had gone.

Some sick people in this world.

That 30 seconds has ruined a number of lives. As a dad of 2 it really frightens me how narrow the margins can be - you can turn your back for seconds and they could be gone just like in this poor girls case.

It doesnt bear thinking about.

 

[Deleted member 6694]

the sooner we bring something in that excludes you from your human rights when you behave in an inhumane way the better.

that man (any many others) is still living and able to enjoy some form of comfort/enjoyment. the family carry the burden every day. its not justice and with the relative comfort we HAVE to afford these people in HMP.

Other prisoners have been getting at him as this was him in 2012 after being stabbed in the eyes with a sharpened bog cleaner. I think you can also see his 6 inch scar on his right cheek from the razor attack in 2002. No doubt he's has a few kickings also over the years.

https://theukdatabase.com/2012/03/28/roy-whiting-elmbridge/

Logon or register to see this image

 

[JonnotheMackem]

I know, but if it was your job would you put 110% in?

Defence lawyers in cases where the guilt of the defendant is beyond all reasonable doubt aren't there to 'defend' a client, but to ensure that justice is done and the sentence given reflects the crimes they committed.

Source: John Wayne Gacy's lawyer.

 

[Billy Rocket]

Defence lawyers in cases where the guilt of the defendant is beyond all reasonable doubt aren't there to 'defend' a client, but to ensure that justice is done and the sentence given reflects the crimes they committed.

Source: John Wayne Gacy's lawyer.

I'm confused. I thought the "beyond all reasonable doubt" test was the responsibility of the jury, after the prosecution and defence had both presented their utmost arguments.

 

[Hank Scorpio]

Awful and I'm not sure I could live with it. Certainly not as a father. The desire to kill him would eat me up.

Didn't that happen to James Bulgers dad? I am sure I have read stuff about him going looking for the two killers after they were released. In the end he turned to the bottle.

The truly bizarre thing about the Bulger killers is you can view what they look like now on the web. Didn't one of them even make the local press for a charity event?

 

[flump]

Other prisoners have been getting at him as this was him in 2012 after being stabbed in the eyes with a sharpened bog cleaner. I think you can also see his 6 inch scar on his right cheek from the razor attack in 2002. No doubt he's has a few kickings also over the years.

https://theukdatabase.com/2012/03/28/roy-whiting-elmbridge/

Logon or register to see this image

And? karma,

I have not one jot of sympathy for him, as for the bit highlighted in blue, the attacks on him are not relevant to this point, the state is obliged to look after him and he will have a fairly comfortable environment you can bet your boots he has a nice cell and some form of comfort, ok nothing like we have outside but still not 3rd world poverty. Sarah has none of this and her family have to continue every day knowing this. yes he may be freighted and at risk - he put HIMSELF in this danger. we just have to pick up the obligation to care and protect him now. its the law, and sometimes the law is an ass.

 

[Paddy O'Dors]

And? karma,

I have not one jot of sympathy for him, as for the bit highlighted in blue, the attacks on him are not relevant to this point, the state is obliged to look after him and he will have a fairly comfortable environment you can bet your boots he has a nice cell and some form of comfort, ok nothing like we have outside but still not 3rd world poverty. Sarah has none of this and her family have to continue every day knowing this. yes he may be freighted and at risk - he put HIMSELF in this danger. we just have to pick up the obligation to care and protect him now. its the law, and sometimes the law is an ass.

You need to put your pitchfork down and write to your MP, they're the only ones that can change it.

 

[mickb2112]

That's what put the bairn off studying criminal law. He said he couldn't do it if he had to defend Adam Johnson after reading the messages that were published.

Criminal law was by far the most interesting part of studying law but absolutely the last thing I`d want to practice as a job.

 

[JonnotheMackem]

I'm confused. I thought the "beyond all reasonable doubt" test was the responsibility of the jury, after the prosecution and defence had both presented their utmost arguments.

Sorry, bad phrasing - when the defense lawyer knows that the guy is guilty himself.

 

[look out piano]

Pieces of shit like Whiting don't deserve to breath tbh, in my world he would've been hung.

 

[flump]

You need to put your pitchfork down and write to your MP, they're the only ones that can change it.

Paddy, thanks for you informed post...........its a public forum I was hoping perhaps for discussion and maybe another point of view or a different way of looking at it.

Pitchfork?? I'm not sure any of my comments above get anywhere near to pitchfork status,

I would be interested in your opinion?

I also understand the point regarding writing to my MP and I am watching to see if the much mooted British bill of rights will ever happen and what it will entail and I may just do that when the time is right. I suspect the human rights bill will always take president though so I will wait for the time being.


This is a child killer, do you personally believe he deserves the same rights as either yourself, the victims or the rest of the general public? My biggest issue is that these people have the ability fight for the same rights as the common person and then tie up our legal system with petty battles for their own gain no matter how small, which in a lot of cases we are obliged to do because of their rights under this bill. This then gets publicised, the family get tormented over and over again and its just gets even harder for then to move on. sounds like justice doesn't it?

 

[Paddy O'Dors]

Paddy, thanks for you informed post...........its a public forum I was hoping perhaps for discussion and maybe another point of view or a different way of looking at it.

Pitchfork?? I'm not sure any of my comments above get anywhere near to pitchfork status,

I would be interested in your opinion?

I also understand the point regarding writing to my MP and I am watching to see if the much mooted British bill of rights will ever happen and what it will entail and I may just do that when the time is right. I suspect the human rights bill will always take president though so I will wait for the time being.


This is a child killer, do you personally believe he deserves the same rights as either yourself, the victims or the rest of the general public? My biggest issue is that these people have the ability fight for the same rights as the common person and then tie up our legal system with petty battles for their own gain no matter how small, which in a lot of cases we are obliged to do because of their rights under this bill. This then gets publicised, the family get tormented over and over again and its just gets even harder for then to move on. sounds like justice doesn't it?

I don't believe in capital punishment if that's what your asking. Should be put in a cell and fed bread and water the rest of his life and forgotten about, aye.

He doesn't have the same rights as me, the victims or the general public though so that bit is not really relevant. As for families being tormented, I think that's summat you need to take up with the press. "<<Insert Name Of Prisoner>>" slashed in prison" across the front of the Daily Mail is only really there to sell a few newspapers with little regard for the families of the victims who as you have said, will just get tormented.

 

[flump]

I don't believe in capital punishment if that's what your asking. Should be put in a cell and fed bread and water the rest of his life and forgotten about, aye.

He doesn't have the same rights as me, the victims or the general public though so that bit is not really relevant. As for families being tormented, I think that's summat you need to take up with the press. "<<Insert Name Of Prisoner>>" slashed in prison" across the front of the Daily Mail is only really there to sell a few newspapers with little regard for the families of the victims who as you have said, will just get tormented.

don't want capital punishment, that was never the intention of my post, only that the rights should be different - might not even go as far as the bread and water as I don't think we would away with that in this day and age, but I would not argue against it for this type of criminal.

Take your point regarding press,

 

[pavarotti1980]

Defence lawyers in cases where the guilt of the defendant is beyond all reasonable doubt aren't there to 'defend' a client, but to ensure that justice is done and the sentence given reflects the crimes they committed.

Source: John Wayne Gacy's lawyer.

They are representing the judicial system to ensure its parity and fairness, regardless of whether defence or prosecution. Their duty is to the court

 

[Shuggy]

A slightly different angle on it...............the female Detective Inspector said " we knew it was him but had no proof" " when he was interviewed he just lied and said "no comment" so we knew he was guilty

So on the one hand we have the defence counsel maintaining absolute professionalism in doing his best and Her Majesty's finest twisting a fundamental right not to self incriminate.

Justice prevailed thankfully.

They are representing the judicial system to ensure its parity and fairness, regardless of whether defence or prosecution. Their duty is to the court

I was in the public gallery at the Old Bailey last year. The defendant was obviously pleading not guilty (the others in the gang had pleaded guilty and got 14 years at previous hearing). The defendant was the driver , caught on camera when the police tip off worked and they were caught after 22 robberies across London. His phone was even giving off a signal at the precise location where the robberies took place ..........at the precise time.

It was a nailed on , slam dunk, throw the feckin keys away when he gets banged up.

Prosecution spent 5 mins summarising.........in essence don't believe his excuses he is as guilty as sin. Then the defence QC got to work for the next 90 mins and he was utterly brilliant.....he unpicked it all and at the end had me seriously questioning my judgement.

Talk about trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Your man was convicted but it was the best example of the justice system in operation that I've witnessed.