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How the liberal left killed the Labour Party

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Flash Gordon said:
So if these parties who keep getting elected occupy the central ground and don't particularly serve the people, why the fuck would you want Labour to become that again? It's lunacy. Embrace a change and try and do something different because the current establishment are nothing but self serving cunts.
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Centre ground policies are what the country ultimately wants, because we have inept politicians in both parties that fuck it up doesn't mean people are wrong...just that the politicians are shite.
If you think Corbyn and his cabal of misfits can a) run the country effectively or b) kid people that they can run the country effectively your barmy, and that's even with Cameron and that bunch of clowns ruling the roost ATM.
I guarantee all the Tories have to do next GE is to put a poster up showing comrade Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, maholtra, Watson and thornberry up with the tag line 'would you trust this lot to run the country' and they'll romp the election.

Even Andy burnham looks likely to fuck off and be a mayor in Manchester to get away from the whole circus
 

For all its faults, supposed or real , the labour ' left' is the only place ( with the exception of the greens ) willing to even consider beginning a post market capitalist solution . We have never been there we don't know exactly what it will look like but we are sure as shit going there soon like it or not . Capitalism has ceased to develop and so has ceased to serve , the population is no longer linked to it industrially as the method of production so can not exert influence over it directly . Capital now serves it's own ends and doesn't even pay tax to support infrastructure.
.It's a massive misunderstanding to see labour left as simply desirous of wanting a return to better worker conditions along old battle lines. Whole new structures around production , distribution and cooperative networks will be required . They have to come about , we have to start thinking , old "common sense" is about to become null and void ( in the next generations life time )
Labour 'left' is trying ( however much without polish ) to offer an alternative , no one else is.
 
Randy Ostrich said:
No, I'm calling people daft if they really believe that the Tories are fiscal geniuses.
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Yet people still claim the media (usually anti Corbyn posters) do not form people's opinions for them

Skandhaless said:
For all its faults, supposed or real , the labour ' left' is the only place ( with the exception of the greens ) willing to even consider beginning a post market capitalist solution . We have never been there we don't know exactly what it will look like but we are sure as shit going there soon like it or not . Capitalism has ceased to develop and so has ceased to serve , the population is no longer linked to it industrially as the method of production so can not exert influence over it directly . Capital now serves it's own ends and doesn't even pay tax to support infrastructure.
.It's a massive misunderstanding to see labour left as simply desirous of wanting a return to better worker conditions along old battle lines. Whole new structures around production , distribution and cooperative networks will be required . They have to come about , we have to start thinking , old "common sense" is about to become null and void ( in the next generations life time )
Labour 'left' is trying ( however much without polish ) to offer an alternative , no one else is.
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Exactly jezzer has stated wealth creation is a good thing, we just need to look at how it is distributed.
 
sedling said:
You need to check the facts mate...

Some examples below :


2012 results

Councils

Labour 61 +22

Conservative 42 -10


2014 results

Councils

Labour 82 +6

Conservative 41 -11



2015 results

Councils

Conservative 163 +32

Labour 74 -3


2016 results

Councils

Labour 58 +0

Conservative 38 -1


You're confusing 'Holding' with 'Winning' imo

Labour seem to be fading since 2012 on the actual results.

I'm fed up with all this tribal conspiracy bollox from both sides. Too much reaction these days is just thoughtless tripe based upon the concept of no middle ground.

If you're not 'A' then you must be 'B', there is nothing else, everyone's at it.
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something you need to do also
You can only compare 2016 with 2012.
Likewise you can't make a comparison with 2014 until 2018 & 2015 until 2019
As the number of council seats & which councils is different each time
 
Skandhaless said:
We have never been there we don't know exactly what it will look like but we are sure as shit going there soon like it or not
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Isn't this the remain camps argument against leaving the EU?

Nobody knows exactly what it'll be like?

Why is it okay for Labour to propose wholesale change to our economy with no idea what it'll be like?
 
Frijj said:
three successive terms in govt

christ i bet they wish they were dead now!

given how many people seem to think cameron is blair's true successor he's a two term prime minister

the labour hard left seriously underestimate how popular blair was - HE PUT LABOUR IN POWER FOR 13 years
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Brown and millipede killed labour and worzel is making sure it stays deed. The tory bastards can't believe their luck, they treat the population like shit and there's no credible opposition . Blair would have wiped the floor with cameron at pmqt ,
 
Frijj said:
Isn't this the remain camps argument against leaving the EU?

Nobody knows exactly what it'll be like?

Why is it okay for Labour to propose wholesale change to our economy with no idea what it'll be like?
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In terms of the Eu , we have a choice to remain the same and the constant option to change our mind later which makes avoidance of uncertainty a viable current position ( for right or wrong )
In terms of the decline of capital as a servant to populations , that's happening , all we don't know is the full appearance of the new world . Might as well start to shape it now to the extent we can
 
DisillusionedOldGit said:
Brown and millipede killed labour and worzel is making sure it stays deed. The tory bastards can't believe their luck, they treat the population like shit and there's no credible opposition . Blair would have wiped the floor with cameron at pmqt ,
Click to expand...

Jezza is anti conflict. I liked this at first. I was hopeful for a more rational, discussed politics than how the commons operates with jibes and jokes and thinly veiled insults.

Unfortunately Corbyn doesn't seem to defend himself from this and so asks about Mary from Whitehaven's community centre rather than ripping into Cam when it needs to be done

Come back Tony :cry:

Skandhaless said:
In terms of the Eu , we have a choice to remain the same and the constant option to change our mind later which makes avoidance of uncertainty a viable current position ( for right or wrong )
In terms of the decline of capital as a servant to populations , that's happening , all we don't know is the full appearance of the new world . Might as well start to shape it now to the extent we can
Click to expand...

So in other words because it's what you want it's okay to have no plan but not okay for other people to have no plan if what they want isn't what you want

Unless I've misunderstood and you're voting out but for someone who seems to think a post capitalist world is coming you're happy to support a hugely undemocratic capitalist behemoth

Got it
 
Frijj said:
Jezza is anti conflict. I liked this at first. I was hopeful for a more rational, discussed politics than how the commons operates with jibes and jokes and thinly veiled insults.

Unfortunately Corbyn doesn't seem to defend himself from this and so asks about Mary from Whitehaven's community centre rather than ripping into Cam when it needs to be done

Come back Tony :cry:
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Is that tosser still on about Mary? That shit was novel at first then it became an embarassing nourishmnt for the tory boo boys . Oh how they must love jezza .
 
Frijj said:
Jezza is anti conflict. I liked this at first. I was hopeful for a more rational, discussed politics than how the commons operates with jibes and jokes and thinly veiled insults.

Unfortunately Corbyn doesn't seem to defend himself from this and so asks about Mary from Whitehaven's community centre rather than ripping into Cam when it needs to be done

Come back Tony :cry:



So in other words because it's what you want it's okay to have no plan but not okay for other people to have no plan if what they want isn't what you want

Unless I've misunderstood and you're voting out but for someone who seems to think a post capitalist world is coming you're happy to support a hugely undemocratic capitalist behemoth

Got it
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Maybe it's easier to keep some structures in tact to change wholesale at a later date , everything has a time . I don't know frijji the people who are looking progressively to the global future ( I trust) are saying stay in, I am not clever enough to pick them apart on detail . You evidently are
 
Skandhaless said:
For all its faults, supposed or real , the labour ' left' is the only place ( with the exception of the greens ) willing to even consider beginning a post market capitalist solution . We have never been there we don't know exactly what it will look like but we are sure as shit going there soon like it or not . Capitalism has ceased to develop and so has ceased to serve , the population is no longer linked to it industrially as the method of production so can not exert influence over it directly . Capital now serves it's own ends and doesn't even pay tax to support infrastructure.
.It's a massive misunderstanding to see labour left as simply desirous of wanting a return to better worker conditions along old battle lines. Whole new structures around production , distribution and cooperative networks will be required . They have to come about , we have to start thinking , old "common sense" is about to become null and void ( in the next generations life time )
Labour 'left' is trying ( however much without polish ) to offer an alternative , no one else is.
Click to expand...

Paul Mason has managed to do that more successfully than the Labour Left in its entirety. I'd recommend reading his 'Postcapitalism', a genuinely excellent read.

The labour left is fixated with 1970 socialist policy like nationalising the railways, yes I'm aware it has support with the majority of voters, yes I support it in principal, but is that really the sort of inspirational policy that people give a fuck about? I respectfully don't think so.
 
DisillusionedOldGit said:
Brown and millipede killed labour and worzel is making sure it stays deed. The tory bastards can't believe their luck, they treat the population like shit and there's no credible opposition . Blair would have wiped the floor with cameron at pmqt ,
Click to expand...
Blair was haemorrhaging votes at every election and knew it. That's why he got out when he did, so he could say he never lost an election. The failure to address this loss of votes is what's led to 10 years in the wilderness.
 
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Le Chuck said:
something you need to do also
You can only compare 2016 with 2012.
Likewise you can't make a comparison with 2014 until 2018 & 2015 until 2019
As the number of council seats & which councils is different each time
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I'm sure everyone understands that.

I was showing trending results to try and respond to the poster's assertion :

"..No mate, Im telling you it wasnt poor because it was virtually identical to an election performance that was lauded as superb at the last council elections. How can it be that a virtually identical set of results are now claimed to be a disaster. Oh aye, cause that fits in the the right wing medias agenda of course.."
 
RTRsBM said:
Blair was haemorrhaging votes at every election and knew it. That's why he got out when he did so he could say he never lost an election. The failure to address this loss of votes is what's led to 10 years in the wilderness.
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Any closer to finding a way back out of the wilderness?
 
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