Underrated test cricketers

[chopsfc007]

3-7 so far

bowling very well

 

[smoker]

His ODI record is very good but irrelevant as the thread is about test cricketers. For a guy batting in the top order his average isn't good enough. Any overs you get from him are a bonus, he's a batsman who bowls a bit. Was watching a big bash game earlier and they had a poll about whether he'd done enough in this match to keep his place, 55% said no. Sounds like there's a bit of a debate about him in Australia too. Gilchrist wasn't as supportive as I thought he might be, Mark Waugh obviously said nowt being a selector.

He'll always be a 'batsman who bowls a bit' as long as they insist on playing him at number 3, not his natural position (6). He simply isnt fit enough to bowl 20 overs and bat number three, he's a big lad with a lot of years behind him. I am not clear what the fuck Mitchell Marsh has done to walk into the number six spot...oh aye his dad is chairman of selectors.

You are right Watto divides opinion in Australia - the same debate is running on the Cricket Australia page on FB.

 

[chopsfc007]

another 100 for smith class act

 

[smoker]

another 100 for smith class act

Five in 2014. Him and Warner (and no doubt f***ing Haddin) will be the dangermen with the bat next year.

Not underrated though...he's excellent.

 

[chopsfc007]

Five in 2014. Him and Warner (and no doubt f***ing Haddin) will be the dangermen with the bat next year.

Not underrated though...he's excellent.

spot on im biased of course would love borthwick to have a go in the England team mainly as batter with occasional spin option

 

[smoker]

spot on im biased of course would love borthwick to have a go in the England team mainly as batter with occasional spin option

Aye we need more spin options, Aussies can't handle it. Could do with a right arm leg or left arm orthodox to complement Ali. Kerrigan is too weak with the bat so Borthwick or Rashid would be the obvious contenders.

 

[chopsfc007]

Aye we need more spin options, Aussies can't handle it. Could do with a right arm leg or left arm orthodox to complement Ali. Kerrigan is too weak with the bat so Borthwick or Rashid would be the obvious contenders.

I know some people maybe you are not massive on stats but scotty has over 1000 runs the last 2 seasons and we all know how the pitch at durham generally favours the seamers not sure why whenever sky mention him its as a bowler which face it isn't anywhere near good enough he is not a fashionable name so doesn't get a look in.

 

[smoker]

I know some people maybe you are not massive on stats but scotty has over 1000 runs the last 2 seasons and we all know how the pitch at durham generally favours the seamers not sure why whenever sky mention him its as a bowler which face it isn't anywhere near good enough he is not a fashionable name so doesn't get a look in.

Cos we're desperate for quality bowlers not batsmen?

Always the case that Durham players have to do twice as much to get picked. You could just about accept Rashid getting picked for the Lions tour over Borthwick, but Samit f***ing Patel?

 

[Charmless Man]

He'll always be a 'batsman who bowls a bit' as long as they insist on playing him at number 3, not his natural position (6). He simply isnt fit enough to bowl 20 overs and bat number three, he's a big lad with a lot of years behind him. I am not clear what the fuck Mitchell Marsh has done to walk into the number six spot...oh aye his dad is chairman of selectors.

You are right Watto divides opinion in Australia - the same debate is running on the Cricket Australia page on FB.

Speaking of Watto being a big lad. I'd always thought he was a fat fucker. Turns out he's in absolutely fantastic shape!

Five in 2014. Him and Warner (and no doubt f***ing Haddin) will be the dangermen with the bat next year.

Not underrated though...he's excellent.

Always felt Steve Smith was a bit of a joke when he first broke into their team. He's proved a lot of people wrong though.

boult

I've always reckoned he was a very good bowler. I have to admit to knowing nothing about media/public opinion on the NZ players though.

 

[chopsfc007]

Speaking of Watto being a big lad. I'd always thought he was a fat fucker. Turns out he's in absolutely fantastic shape!



Always felt Steve Smith was a bit of a joke when he first broke into their team. He's proved a lot of people wrong though.



I've always reckoned he was a very good bowler. I have to admit to knowing nothing about media/public opinion on the NZ players though.

not even in there one day side either

 

[Igor]

Ian Botham's test average is 33..... I'd always thought that was pretty low and I that I mean he was a better batter than that. I'd imagine the reason it's so low was his style and that he normally batted down the order where he had to swing the bat a bit. Stats on their own don't explain everything.

Also look at the bowlers Botham hadvto face, Roberts, Holding, Garner, Croft, Marshall, Walsh, Lillee, Hadlee, Imran, Kapil Dev to name a few. Like to see any good Batsman today do well against those.

 

[mikemanc]

He'll always be a 'batsman who bowls a bit' as long as they insist on playing him at number 3, not his natural position (6). He simply isnt fit enough to bowl 20 overs and bat number three, he's a big lad with a lot of years behind him. I am not clear what the fuck Mitchell Marsh has done to walk into the number six spot...oh aye his dad is chairman of selectors.

You are right Watto divides opinion in Australia - the same debate is running on the Cricket Australia page on FB.

Same as Sean Marsh, I don't know how he gets a game either.

I know some people maybe you are not massive on stats but scotty has over 1000 runs the last 2 seasons and we all know how the pitch at durham generally favours the seamers not sure why whenever sky mention him its as a bowler which face it isn't anywhere near good enough he is not a fashionable name so doesn't get a look in.

Can't remember who it was now (maybe Harmison??) but they were being critical of the ECB saying that if you get picked for 1 skill, you're labelled as that type of player for life. He reckoned Borthwick will only ever be picked as a spinner and said Ali will only ever get picked as a batsman, not because he's developing into a decent off-spinner. I think he's got a point about Borthwick but as long as Ali keeps taking wickets he'll keep his place, even if at some point they have to accept he's not a top 6 batsman.

 

[smoker]

Same as Sean Marsh, I don't know how he gets a game either.


Can't remember who it was now (maybe Harmison??) but they were being critical of the ECB saying that if you get picked for 1 skill, you're labelled as that type of player for life. He reckoned Borthwick will only ever be picked as a spinner and said Ali will only ever get picked as a batsman, not because he's developing into a decent off-spinner. I think he's got a point about Borthwick but as long as Ali keeps taking wickets he'll keep his place, even if at some point they have to accept he's not a top 6 batsman.

Dont think Shaun Marsh is that bad, scored 148 against the worlds best bowling attack at Centurion this year. Came in at number 4 when the openers had crumbled. He is an opening bat though, and for some inexplicable reason he gets played way down the order. Mitch Marsh is the Aussie Chris Woakes.

 

[chopsfc007]

Same as Sean Marsh, I don't know how he gets a game either.


Can't remember who it was now (maybe Harmison??) but they were being critical of the ECB saying that if you get picked for 1 skill, you're labelled as that type of player for life. He reckoned Borthwick will only ever be picked as a spinner and said Ali will only ever get picked as a batsman, not because he's developing into a decent off-spinner. I think he's got a point about Borthwick but as long as Ali keeps taking wickets he'll keep his place, even if at some point they have to accept he's not a top 6 batsman.

I maybe being harsh but if borthwick was only ever going to picked on bowling I don't think he would ever get in

Dont think Shaun Marsh is that bad, scored 148 against the worlds best bowling attack at Centurion this year. Came in at number 4 when the openers had crumbled. He is an opening bat though, and for some inexplicable reason he gets played way down the order. Mitch Marsh is the Aussie Chris Woakes.

not that bad surely

 

[smoker]

I maybe being harsh but if borthwick was only ever going to picked on bowling I don't think he would ever get in

True. Although there is not a huge amount of competition in the spin department so if he was actually bowling consistently, on a turning wicket, it would have a massive bearing on his chances! He is generally bowling half a dozen overs a match - if that - at home, then gets asked to bowl 50+ at Old Trafford...! That can't be good for the lad's development. Either he needs to forget about the bowling and work on becoming a world class batsman or he needs a new club IMHO.

I maybe being harsh but if borthwick was only ever going to picked on bowling I don't think he would ever get in


not that bad surely

Chris Woakes has actually taken test wickets (albeit Indian batsmen playing like they didn't give a fuck). Mitchell Marsh makes Colly look like a canny test bowler.

 

[Bri]

True. Although there is not a huge amount of competition in the spin department so if he was actually bowling consistently, on a turning wicket, it would have a massive bearing on his chances! He is generally bowling half a dozen overs a match - if that - at home, then gets asked to bowl 50+ at Old Trafford...! That can't be good for the lad's development. Either he needs to forget about the bowling and work on becoming a world class batsman or he needs a new club IMHO.

I think Borthwick gets a bit too much stick.

Spin bowlers develop later than any other department and wrist-spinning is harder than finger spinning. The lad is only 24 y.o. Tredwell is only getting his chance now at 30 and Swann was what 27 when he became an England regular.

Currently he has a useful googlie, I saw him get a couple of wickets with that last season, but his main problem seems to be length, too many full tosses and long hops.

But yea, I agree with the above comment, to develop he needs to bowl more overs.

 

[smoker]

I think Borthwick gets a bit too much stick.

Spin bowlers develop later than any other department and wrist-spinning is harder than finger spinning. The lad is only 24 y.o. Tredwell is only getting his chance now at 30 and Swann was what 27 when he became an England regular.

Currently he has a useful googlie, I saw him get a couple of wickets with that last season, but his main problem seems to be length, too many full tosses and long hops.

But yea, I agree with the above comment, to develop he needs to bowl more overs.

In this country aye, because spin coaching is shit. Players are having to learn to read a pitch and player themselves.

Some breakthrough ages:

Murali - 20
Saqlain Mushtaq - 19
Harbhajan Singh - 21
Nathan Lyon - 24
Warne - 24

Is it any surprise Moeen's bowling took a quantum leap when he got involved with the England setup?

 

[rentaghost]

You don't really get this all-rounder concept do you?

We'll be thrapping ourselves daft if Stokes has averages like Watto's in ten years.



Eh? Ian Bell is a top class batsman. He almost single handedly won the Ashes in 2013. He has been out of form since, and debatable whether he is suited to the modern one day game, but his record speaks for itself.

I'm not sure your dismissive approach to those you disagree on Watson is warranted. He carries as much debate and divides opinion in Australia even more. No aussie coach has ever been completely sold on Watson. Since he made his debut he has missed more tests than he has played and only partly down to injury. He is seen primarily as a batsman and his record isn't good enough - he has often been 4th or 5th seamer for a dominant aussie side and in those circumstances bowling averages can flatter you making his Flintoff comparison nonsense. He hasn't managed to get more than 1 wicket in any test innings since 2011 and his 50 on boxing day was his first in the whole of 2014. Allan Border is the latest to come out really critical of Watson.

 

[scotch]

going to say Kumar Sangakara, since giving up the gloves the bloke averages over 60+ with the bat, but hardly anyone ever talks about him. Always De Villiers or Clarke etc..

 

[smoker]

I'm not sure your dismissive approach to those you disagree on Watson is warranted. He carries as much debate and divides opinion in Australia even more. No aussie coach has ever been completely sold on Watson. Since he made his debut he has missed more tests than he has played and only partly down to injury. He is seen primarily as a batsman and his record isn't good enough - he has often been 4th or 5th seamer for a dominant aussie side and in those circumstances bowling averages can flatter you making his Flintoff comparison nonsense. He hasn't managed to get more than 1 wicket in any test innings since 2011 and his 50 on boxing day was his first in the whole of 2014. Allan Border is the latest to come out really critical of Watson.

Nice use of stats. IIRC he's only played three tests in 2014. Using 2014 as your qualifying period also conveniently excludes his good form against us in December 2013. As for dominant attack, Watson's career has coincided with Australia's lowest ebb c. 2009-2013.

Watto has been chucked in the number three slot because its a problem position for them and he 'should be grateful for a game'. He then gets lambasted for not scoring runs like a number three and being too nackered to bowl effectively. IIRC this was Border's (etc) line of attack. IMO he should be their regular number six, but the slot is earmarked for the chairman of selectors' son.

You have to feel for the bloke, he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Gets shit loads of abuse from the booboys for not converting it into a ton. If he'd hit a ton, then it would be because the bowling was shit.

And yes, he does totally divide opinion in Australia, if he was universally rated then he wouldn't make a very interesting nomination for 'most underrated test player' would he?

going to say Kumar Sangakara, since giving up the gloves the bloke averages over 60+ with the bat, but hardly anyone ever talks about him. Always De Villiers or Clarke etc..

Apart from his umpteen ICC ODI and Test cricketer of the year awards.