Battle of the Somme

[Geronimo]

Cheers lads, I was going to say that it might be best to stick to details of the battle itself but the people involved are often just as interesting.

My great grandad volunteered into the RAMC (Medical Corps) as a stretcher bearer - he and his mates thought that it'd be a better option than working at the colliery ...

We have a photo of soon after they enlisted and another during WWI and their expressions have totally changed.

It would be great to see the old photographs if you were interested in posting them.

Cheers lads, I was going to say that it might be best to stick to details of the battle itself but the people involved are often just as interesting.

My great grandad volunteered into the RAMC (Medical Corps) as a stretcher bearer - he and his mates thought that it'd be a better option than working at the colliery ...

We have a photo of soon after they enlisted and another during WWI and their expressions have totally changed.

A lot of the colliery workers were deployed digging the tunnels under the German trenches to enable the sappers to plant mines. The Germans were also doing the same to us and many fire-fights took place underground. How terrifying must that have been.

Sebastian Faulks' book "Birdsong" ,albeit fiction, depicts this very well in a chapter near the end of the book

 

[Deleted User 11453]

It would be great to see the old photographs if you were interested in posting them.
..
A lot of the colliery workers were deployed digging the tunnels under the German trenches to enable the sappers to plant mines. The Germans were also doing the same to us and many fire-fights took place underground. How terrifying must that have been.

Sebastian Faulks' book "Birdsong" ,albeit fiction, depicts this very well in a chapter near the end of the book

I thought I may have already scanned them onto a drive at work mate but I can't find them, they are at home so I could try early next week. I have the letters that his CO and a comrade of his sent home to his widow, my uncle reckons that his mate tries a bit of a come-on with my great grandmother (who then had to raise my nanna and her sister on her own).

I read Birdsong and I'm ambivalent towards it - the humping scenes were interesting but the tunnelling and war accounts were more interesting. I don't think it transferred that well to TV when I watched the mini-series.

Did you have relatives involved in WWI? I'll have a re-read of the thread to see if you mentioned it. Cheers.

It should be noted that a large number of men enlisted, regardless of their patriotism and possible peer pressure, simply in the hope of three square meals a day, and warm clothing and good boots. In those days many of the "common men" existed in conditions of great privation and want.

Naturally also, there will have been a spirit of adventure and the optimism that it will all be over quick. And, at the risk of sounding facetious, the opportunity to see parts of the world that are more than 12 miles from one's front door.

Spot on there, a chance to get out of the pit village and share some experiences with mates. My great grandad moved from a colliery in Cumbria to Houghton (lived at Ruby Street on road to Newbottle) and then died in 1917 quite sad really but it happened to millions of others.

Can you post it?

I deffo have a pic of him in RAMC clobber, my uncle has most of the family history sources and I'll see him soon and I'll ask if he could provide the others.

 

[Feed the Monster]

The Beaumont Hammel Newfoundland Memorial Park is well worth a visit as is the museum at Peronne which is one of the best I`ve ever been too for WWI.

Agreed - Beaumont Hammel is well worth it. Didnt get to Peronne but the museum at Ypres was fantastic.

 

[Wierd Valley Mackem]

I thought I may have already scanned them onto a drive at work mate but I can't find them, they are at home so I could try early next week. I have the letters that his CO and a comrade of his sent home to his widow, my uncle reckons that his mate tries a bit of a come-on with my great grandmother (who then had to raise my nanna and her sister on her own).

I read Birdsong and I'm ambivalent towards it - the humping scenes were interesting but the tunnelling and war accounts were more interesting. I don't think it transferred that well to TV when I watched the mini-series.

Did you have relatives involved in WWI? I'll have a re-read of the thread to see if you mentioned it. Cheers.



Spot on there, a chance to get out of the pit village and share some experiences with mates. My great grandad moved from a colliery in Cumbria to Houghton (lived at Ruby Street on road to Newbottle) and then died in 1917 quite sad really but it happened to millions of others.



I deffo have a pic of him in RAMC clobber, my uncle has most of the family history sources and I'll see him soon and I'll ask if he could provide the others.

Yea my Grandad was wounded 1st day of the Somme mate (posted earlier) My Mam has his discharge papers somewhere? Dont really know much about him really he died long before i was born i really should find out.

 

[Deleted User 11453]

Yea my Grandad was wounded 1st day of the Somme mate (posted earlier) My Mam has his discharge papers somewhere? Dont really know much about him really he died long before i was born i really should find out.

Sorry for not reading, I need to catch up on this thread as I missed a couple of pages last night.

I've found the 1901 census return for my great grandad's family, he was 13 in 1901 and his occupation was "Coal-Pony driver-below ground".

 

[elder]

It would be great to see the old photographs if you were interested in posting them.

A lot of the colliery workers were deployed digging the tunnels under the German trenches to enable the sappers to plant mines. The Germans were also doing the same to us and many fire-fights took place underground. How terrifying must that have been.

Sebastian Faulks' book "Birdsong" ,albeit fiction, depicts this very well in a chapter near the end of the book

the durham light infantry alone had 42 battalions during wwi, an incredible number of men of which over 12000 lost their lives. 2 of those battalions were in action on day 1 of the somme one of which lost nearly 60% of it's number in just a few days...

my dad was in the dli in the 60's, his cap badge is back at home (i hope).

 

[smoker]

A lot of the colliery workers were deployed digging the tunnels under the German trenches to enable the sappers to plant mines. The Germans were also doing the same to us and many fire-fights took place underground. How terrifying must that have been.

Sebastian Faulks' book "Birdsong" ,albeit fiction, depicts this very well in a chapter near the end of the book

Birdsong is awful - anachronistic and full of historical inaccuracies.

Check out an Australian film called Beneath Hill 60. Should still be on UK Netflix

 

[Geronimo]

Birdsong is awful - anachronistic and full of historical inaccuracies.

Check out an Australian film called Beneath Hill 60. Should still be on UK Netflix

I think the novel is excellent however,as mentioned above, the TV series didn't work. I also went to Northern Stage earlier this year to see the stage production and that didn't do it for me either.

 

[smoker]

I think the novel is excellent

I love the bit where the Germans pluck our conceited protagonist from a collapsed mine tunnel and tell him ze vor iss over.

The Great War had actually entered a second mobile phase in November 1918.

Schoolboy stuff.

 

[Locke's SAFC]

Brave lads, nothing but immense respect for them

RIP

Took some bollocks, because in those days two well placed machine guns could take care of thousands.

Although, as someone said, they didn't have a choice. The alternative was a charge of cowardice and possible execution.

We tend to think the likes of the NKVD maxim: "take a step forward and you may survive; take a step back and you will definitely be shot by your own" is alien to us, but British soldiers were operating under the same conditions during WW1.

IIRC there were mutinies breaking out towards the end of the war but its hard to find a lot of truth as the details were always hushed up.

Also my history teacher used to drink with a WW1 veteran. He said they always knew when they'd be going over the top cos they'd get a mug full of grog beforehand. So many of the soldiers would be half cut - Dutch courage.

Not only half cut, mate, but some of 'em well over the knot. It wasn't uncommon to dive down into a crater to find some fellow soldiers asleep pissed out of their heads in the heat of battle; and who can blame 'em, being asked to put yourself in a situation where there was a fair chance you would die is not my idea of a noble cause.

 

[Deleted User 11453]

Took some bollocks, because in those days two well placed machine guns could take care of thousands.

Although, as someone said, they didn't have a choice. The alternative was a charge of cowardice and possible execution.

We tend to think the likes of the NKVD maxim: "take a step forward and you may survive; take a step back and you will definitely be shot by your own" is alien to us, but British soldiers were operating under the same conditions during WW1.
...

Not only half cut, mate, but some of 'em well over the knot. It wasn't uncommon to dive down into a crater to find some fellow soldiers asleep pissed out of their heads in the heat of battle; and who can blame 'em, being asked to put yourself in a situation where there was a fair chance you would die is not my idea of a noble cause.

Re: not wanting to advance, something similar happened on D-Day didn't it when the landing craft doors opened? An NCO/junior officer with a hand-pistol behind the poor sods who disembarked. Or maybe I watched too many films.

Re: shell crater. If you advanced and couldn't/wouldn't go any further was there an agreed amount of time before it was acceptable to return to the trenches? Or would people be forced to injure themselves or wait until capture, death?

 

[Locke's SAFC]

Birdsong is awful - anachronistic and full of historical inaccuracies.

Check out an Australian film called Beneath Hill 60. Should still be on UK Netflix

Birdsong is an outstanding book. It is, of course, fiction and imbued with Romanticism, but it is an absolutely beautiful commentary on a people who by and large aren't made for war, and are eccentric in outlook, but somehow when occasion calls they go to the slaughter meek as lambs.

A beautifully written book which to any person with feeling will tug at your emotions.

 

[Deleted User 11453]

...
A beautifully written book which to any person with feeling will tug at your emotions.

I don't want to descend into trivial behaviour in such a serious thread but the only tugging I did was during the chapters with the French bird who was up for it.

 

[Locke's SAFC]

Re: not wanting to advance, something similar happened on D-Day didn't it when the landing craft doors opened? An NCO/junior officer with a hand-pistol behind the poor sods who disembarked. Or maybe I watched too many films.

Re: shell crater. If you advanced and couldn't/wouldn't go any further was there an agreed amount of time before it was acceptable to return to the trenches? Or would people be forced to injure themselves or wait until capture, death?

From everything I've read, I tend to read the diaries of people who fought in the war, all reason was out of the equation when you didn't have a cat in hell's chance of breaking through the German lines. Down in a crater, wait 'til nightfall until making your way back, deal with questions later.

It shouldn't be forgotten that the advantage during WW1 lay with the defenders because tactics hadn't kept pace with technology, and no one had come up with a viable plan for breaking through a well fortified defence, and the Germans had the luxury of picking the best ground when they dug in first, always the high ground and could see right into the British trenches from a mile. They knew what was coming at The Somme and prepared accordingly. When the British got up near the German lines and looked back they were amazed to find the view the Germans had.

 

[Deleted User 11453]

From everything I've read, I tend to read the diaries of people who fought in the war, all reason was out of the equation when you didn't have a cat in hell's chance of breaking through the German lines. Down in a crater, wait 'til nightfall until making your way back, deal with questions later.

It shouldn't be forgotten that the advantage during WW1 lay with the defenders because tactics hadn't kept pace with technology, and no one had come up with a viable plan for breaking through a well fortified defence, and the Germans had the luxury of picking the best ground when they dug in first, always the high ground and could see right into the British trenches from a mile. They knew what was coming at The Somme and prepared accordingly. When the British got up near the German lines and looked back they were amazed to find the view the Germans had.

Ta for the answer, sorry for the infantile reply re: Birdsong.

Yes I knew about the German trench lines, higher position, less prone to flooding etc. I always wondered why the Allies didn't just retreat a bit further back and re-dig lines in better positions or would that have been impractical on a political level?

 

[Locke's SAFC]

Ta for the answer, sorry for the infantile reply re: Birdsong.

Yes I knew about the German trench lines, higher position, less prone to flooding etc. I always wondered why the Allies didn't just retreat a bit further back and re-dig lines in better positions or would that have been impractical on a political level?

Yes, on a political level it wasn't acceptable. The French and British were supposed to be clearing the Germans out of France and Belgium, so while the Germans were content to build a relatively complex system of defence and say this is ours now come and take it back, the Allies built shabby trenches supposedly temporary because to do otherwise was not in keeping with their mission.

 

[smoker]

I don't want to descend into trivial behaviour in such a serious thread but the only tugging I did was during the chapters with the French bird who was up for it.

I didn't find the book moving at all. The 1911 stuff was anachronistic porn, not romance and the protagonist came across as a conceited prick who was difficult to empathise with. The 1979 chapters were just pointless as it was blatantly obvious whodunnit.

The London Underground tunneler who couldn't have kids (forget his name) was an interesting bloke you could really identify with, but Faulks kills him off Game of Thrones Style, which just didn't add to the story and just got my back up.

I stuck with it as a Great War fan but was left feeling pretty underwhelmed.

As I say, check out Beneath Hill 60. Very moving and - aside from a Northumberland Fusilier with a cockney accent - very authentic.

 

[AB22 Easy Tiger]

Changing the subject slightly the Diaries of Arthur Linfoot is a fascinating site. A new installment is published every day, 100 years to the day after it was written. At the moment he's still in Sunderland and working in Hendon, living a normal life. He didn't know what was to come...

Background here.

 

[Wierd Valley Mackem]

Somme Mud by E. Lynch is a great first hand account. Australian fella's life in the trenches well worth a read.

 

[Locke's SAFC]

Here is part of the belligerence I was referring too. Too much pomposity and pig headedness amongst all of the powers. So much greed and lust for power, influence and colonies. Britain wanted to remain to top power, Germany wanted a piece of what Britain had, France was smarting over 1870 and its loss of Alscace Lorraine, Austo Hungarian Empire was losing its influence and was desperately clinging on, the Balkans was an absolute powder keg and Russia had its own agenda. It was a toxic and lethal mix and combined with the alliances dragged everyone into a desperate war.

All of the powers were to blame to a certain extent although none could at that time see what was going to happen.

Once the ball had started rolling, no one would stop it. No one wanted to lose face and be damned with the millions of casualties. Nothing to do with Blackadder, everything to do with politicians and their belligerence.



It doesn`t alter the fact that it was the stubbornness on all sides that was a partial cause of the war and caused it to drag on for 4 years. Asquith`s son`s death does not change that in any way. Maybe if diplomatic channels had been explored more thoroughly maybe, just maybe a war could have been avoided but then again maybe not as it seems as though too many parties actually wanted a war.

This whole thing about who was to blame for the war is a really interesting question, and hotly debated.

One thing that can be said with certainty is that it wasn't something that no one could control. That idea was a get out clause for politicians whose memoirs claimed that it was an unstoppable force that gathered momentum and overtook everyone. It is absolute bollocks. Certain decisions led to World War One, decisions made by the military and politicians, and in truth supported by many people; but it certainly wasn't this thing that no one could control.

On the German side, it could be argued that the assignation of an Austrian diplomat was Terrorism, sponsored by the government of Serbia, and quite rightly the Austrian Government should seek to redress the balance; and Germany should support its ally. Not really any different to the attack of New York and Britain supporting the United States. You could also argue that in many ways Germany was a liberal country; it wasn't this nation characterised by Militarism alone. It had a welfare state much more advanced than ours and it had the largest socialist presence in Europe. Also, absolutely nowhere does it state that Germany wished to challenge Britain in the lead up to WW1. Their stated war aims was a continental European common market ran by Germany, plus some land grabs in Central/Eastern Europe. It really doesn't wash to say Germany was to blame for the whole thing.

I think it`s that sort of belligerence that made us crash head first into war in the first place. Maybe if there was more had ringing and actual thinking it could have been avoided. But then it`s easy being tough and declaring war when you know you`ll never have face the consequences of your decision and that you`ll have a load of willing and many not so willing soldiers do the dirty fighting on your behalf.

On the eve of war, Sir Edward Grey said something like: "the lights have gone out all over Europe and we shan't see them lit in our lifetime".

They understood how catastrophic the war would be. It shouldn't be levelled at them that they took the decision lightly with little thought for the consequences. Whether or not you think it was the right decision is another matter.