Arguements against sacking Poyet

[one footed wonder]

I just don't see what the continuing cycle of surviving by a new manager bounce does, other than leaves the next manager through the doors to start again and mop up the debris of the previous regime, only in 18 months to find ourselves in the same position.......frustrating as hell.

I'm not massively bothered if we keep Poyet or not as I think the problems run much deeper. and until we address those we could appoint anyone and be not much better off...DoF's, no DoF's, Udinese model, manager in total control, board full of non football people, it needs a root and branch review and a philosophy which we stick to and try to develop rather than chopping and changing, that may mean we have to get worse to get better.

Does that mean keeping Poyet or letting him go? None of the names thrown about fill me with confidence but neither does keeping Poyet.....fucked if I know what to do.

How do you solve a problem like Sunderland AFC?? I'd be f***ing minted if I knew.

 

[West Winger]

Have defended Poyet all season, but...

If we don't take at least 4 points from our next two games we will be worse off than we were at that point last season.

Exactly this.

I'm in the same boat - I've been at staunch supporter of his but at the minute we look like we are going downhill fast. It's not helped by his contradictory pronouncements to the media as to whether he's in charge of signing players or not, this mythical "system" that he plays - and then doesn't, his suggestions that the players aren't good enough to play his system, the seeming installation of the idea that 0-0 is acceptable in every game and the overriding fear that seems to have gripped the whole team on the pitch where they're so scared of doing something that they'd rather pass it back To the keeper than try anything which might lead to an attack.

All of this is his department to solve.

 

[Lonz]

I think everyone knew at the beginning of the season that the squad wasn't as strong as it was last year. Unsurprisingly, we're not playing very well. The signings we made aren't performing as we'd hoped. So, again, we're unsurprisingly not playing very well.

Gus is managing with his hands tied. The problem goes higher up the food chain than Poyet and his training staff.

I really don't want us to sack Poyet. I don't think he will be. I think it's more likely he'll walk if he doesn't get better service from the DOF and those in charge of bringing academy players through.

 

[The Exile]

It's also repeatedly got some out of trouble when they're wandering sleepily into a relegation.

What you say is only proven to be anywhere close to being accurate as most teams actually act, very few stick with their manager when they're in trouble. Hence some pull out and improve, some stay in trouble.

We're one of those in the repeatedly changing gang. Sooner or later our luck will run out, because we're forced into making that choice so often. We need to draw a line somewhere and hold it, no matter how hard it gets in the short term. Otherwise all we're ever going to be is relegation fodder.

 

[chuckyroll]

We're one of those in the repeatedly changing gang. Sooner or later our luck will run out, because we're forced into making that choice so often. We need to draw a line somewhere and hold it, no matter how hard it gets in the short term. Otherwise all we're ever going to be is relegation fodder.

if signs of improvement are there i would agree , this team has gone back over considerably

 

[Perryqhill]

We're one of those in the repeatedly changing gang. Sooner or later our luck will run out, because we're forced into making that choice so often. We need to draw a line somewhere and hold it, no matter how hard it gets in the short term. Otherwise all we're ever going to be is relegation fodder.

I agreed with that sentiment earlier in the season and applied it to Poyet. I think he's absolutely clueless and throws in the towel just as much as any of the players. His hands might be tied to a degree, but there's no excuse for what he continually serves up.

Keep him, lose him - we'll still be shit. If he'd actually implemented what he looked to be doing on his arrival though, if he'd just got some of the basics of it, even if it meant we were shipping goals, or not scoring and looking like we had a plan then fair enough. I'd say we had the identity and plan in place and patience was needed. Instead of that we're camped in our own half trying to simply deny others space and with no one making any sort of forward movement - that's not progressive football. I love the idea of retaining possession and keeping the ball, working out moves, but it's not and never going to work give how we approach it and the type of players he favours in selection. We have the coach pouring scorn on fans, trying to distance himself from the recruitment - basically trying to save his on skin. It's a shame because I thought finally we'd got someone of genuine quality, but he's contradicting himself week in week out now and his team is a shambles.

 

[Lonz]

I agreed with that sentiment earlier in the season and applied it to Poyet. I think he's absolutely clueless and throws in the towel just as much as any of the players. His hands might be tied to a degree, but there's no excuse for what he continually serves up.

Keep him, lose him - we'll still be shit. If he'd actually implemented what he looked to be doing on his arrival though, if he'd just got some of the basics of it, even if it meant we were shipping goals, or not scoring and looking like we had a plan then fair enough. I'd say we had the identity and plan in place and patience was needed. Instead of that we're camped in our own half trying to simply deny others space and with no one making any sort of forward movement - that's not progressive football. I love the idea of retaining possession and keeping the ball, working out moves, but it's not and never going to work give how we approach it and the type of players he favours in selection. We have the coach pouring scorn on fans, trying to distance himself from the recruitment - basically trying to save his on skin. It's a shame because I thought finally we'd got someone of genuine quality, but he's contradicting himself week in week out now and his team is a shambles.

Poyet has shown he can get us playing some attractive football and win us games with the right players. I don't think we have them at the moment. I don't think we're the complete team he wants. Whether we can realistically get what he wants is another thing entirely, and it's at that point I think his position comes into question.

We've come off the back of one of the most entertaining seasons as a Sunderland fan in my lifetime, and lost a chunk of the squad that played a major part of it in the summer. There's also the question about how Wickham can play so well at the end of last season, and then be a shadow of that this. I'm of the opinion that if he gets the right players, and fills the gaps, he'll do better for us than most other options out there for us.

 

[mackemrick]

please tell me who would take over??

Honestly! Every Year we get the same thing, get rid of the manager!

People moaning need to realise we will not be a top 10 yet!

I would rather have a boring season just plodding along than be at the bottom fighting for points! (Yes we are down there, but its better than last year!)

exactly who is there who could do better? We would end up with Kevin bloody Ball as caretaker until it is to late

 

[Perryqhill]

Poyet has shown he can get us playing some attractive football and win us games with the right players. I don't think we have them at the moment. I don't think we're the complete team he wants. Whether we can realistically get what he wants is another thing entirely, and it's at that point I think his position comes into question.

We've come off the back of one of the most entertaining seasons as a Sunderland fan in my lifetime, and lost a chunk of the squad that played a major part of it in the summer. There's also the question about how Wickham can play so well at the end of last season, and then be a shadow of that this. I'm of the opinion that if he gets the right players, and fills the gaps, he'll do better for us than most other options out there for us.

He showed early on last season he could, then we he messed about and it got very turgid. We then had an incredible spell at the end where the difference was attitude and mentality, essentially we had nothing to lose, whereas now we're set up to protect. That's the trouble for me, there's just been no balance this season.
Is it's the players fault we're camped in our own half or is it drilled into them to defend that way? If he hasn't got the players to play the way he wants (which seems to be changing from an absolutely set in stone formation, to winging it) then why not adapt more to the players till you have them? What he's actually doing is putting players in roles they're not so comfortable with, placing too many players of the same ilk in the side, when we have one or two who should be more accustomed to the type of play he wants and then we're suffering as a result of players not capable of playing in a creative manner being asked to, whilst they're also frightened to make forward runs in case we as a team lose shape.

You can make as many excuses as you like for the lack of quality and some of it is actually true - his hands have been tied to a degree and it was a big job in the summer. But where are the signs of improvement in terms of results, player adapting, players getting better? Yeah we've been hard to beat on occasions but it's not because we have some kind of tactical masterplan, we simply defend in numbers and get as tight as we can in the final third. It becomes almost impossible for a forward player in that situation and the solution? Sign Jermain Defoe and put another forward up there with him, whilst reverting to a version of the system which nearly wrecked our Premiership status last year because we had no idea how to play it. I'm not convinced.

 

[johnson]

I have slated him on here this week, but don't think he should be sacked, he has turned it round before and 100pc he can do it again.

I am just frustrated how stubborn he is, and his interview pissed me off

We aren't looking for a revolution, just tweak your tactics to be slightly more positive at home please!

I think the selection and tactics against Fulham shocked a lot of fans, we thought this was the perfect practice for the Burnley game.

 

[Lonz]

He showed early on last season he could, then we he messed about and it got very turgid. We then had an incredible spell at the end where the difference was attitude and mentality, essentially we had nothing to lose, whereas now we're set up to protect. That's the trouble for me, there's just been no balance this season.
Is it's the players fault we're camped in our own half or is it drilled into them to defend that way? If he hasn't got the players to play the way he wants (which seems to be changing from an absolutely set in stone formation, to winging it) then why not adapt more to the players till you have them? What he's actually doing is putting players in roles they're not so comfortable with, placing too many players of the same ilk in the side, when we have one or two who should be more accustomed to the type of play he wants and then we're suffering as a result of players not capable of playing in a creative manner being asked to, whilst they're also frightened to make forward runs in case we as a team lose shape.

You can make as many excuses as you like for the lack of quality and some of it is actually true - his hands have been tied to a degree and it was a big job in the summer. But where are the signs of improvement in terms of results, player adapting, players getting better? Yeah we've been hard to beat on occasions but it's not because we have some kind of tactical masterplan, we simply defend in numbers and get as tight as we can in the final third. It becomes almost impossible for a forward player in that situation and the solution? Sign Jermain Defoe and put another forward up there with him, whilst reverting to a version of the system which nearly wrecked our Premiership status last year because we had no idea how to play it. I'm not convinced.

I'm not disagreeing with you in the sense that he shouldn't be shouldering any responsibility for the displays, but I think part of it is deliberate. Some of what's been served up this season hasn't been pretty, but it's been far, far worse in not the too distant past. We're playing better and creating more than under O'Neill. I'm certainly enjoying going to games more anyway. I just think it's too narrow-minded to change the manager all the time when actually it's very rare for you to see a manager see his plans through.

So much has been poorly managed beyond Poyet's brief. Colback for another example. You have to show some trust in a manager otherwise what's the point? I've seen us play some really impressive stuff when things have been going our way, and football does have its ups and downs. I've said all season, we're missing a midfield. But we have the players we have, and asking them to do things they're not capable of loses us games. Lee Cattermole is a very limited footballer attacking-wise.

I guess what I'm trying to put across is, he knows what his players' capabilities are. He knows their strengths and weaknesses, and therefore knows what we're missing to progress. I genuinely do believe he knows what kind of players he wants to play some attractive, possession football he goes on about. I think the club's plan for this season has gone badly wrong. We thought we were signing players of class and quality (e.g. Rodwell), and they've been duds. Now we have to make sure we stay in this division (which is priority number one right now) and fill the gaps.

Those higher up the food chain have made some very poor decisions this season and we're paying for it. The manager is getting the blame because it's pretty much his job to get the blame. If we want to progress as a club though, we need to stop making these poor acquisitions and invest in the right places.

 

[AC Mack]

The point here is that our best players only turn up half the time. The worst even less. When they do turn up they're perfectly decent, but it doesn't happen often enough and they're not going to inspire anyone to do better when they can't motivate themselves to improve the ratio of decent/good performances to bad. They are an integral part of the problem and unfortunately the most difficult part to solve given our financial constraints.

This has a bit of the old 'Sessegnon only turns up one in five' about it.

When of course many others turn up none.

 

[PeruzziWatch]

How about we just don't sack him, give him time, allow him to tweak things to accommodate Defoe and see how things work out?

Or is that illegal these days?

 

[Crammy Mackem]

One of my main concerns is actually the signing of Defoe.

When throughout his time here or at Brighton has he ever moulded a side to fit in a player of Defoes mould?

Very rarely Id say.

 

[Ilios]

You spout the same stuff over and over again man.

Nail your colours to the mast and say which players you think arent listening.

Of the last five managers you quote, only Larsson (3 1/2 years) O'Shea (3 1/2 years) Fletcher (2 1/2 years) have been here for any considerable amount of time who started today.

Your arguement doesn't stack up.

I'm not going to type out the same list for everyone with a short memory. If you don't know who they are then you're incapable of arguing the toss.

The only players that have been here through Bruce, MON, Di Canio & Poyet are Cattermole, Wickham, O'Shea, Brown, Larsson. Fletcher, Graham & Johnson through 3 of them.

Cattermole, O'Shea, Larsson and Johnson are probably our best players consistently (Pantilimon also), so they are certainly not to blame.
Fletcher & Wickham you can argue that case against them, in terms of output, lack of consistency etc, I'll grant you that; however, Poyet currently would be claiming a giro if it weren't for stumbling upon playing Wickham in an emergency, and he's played him anywhere but CF since. Brown has had a ropey season, and is on the way out really, but he was instrumental last year in keeping us up aswell.

The argument of everything being the fault of the 'old guard' is bollocks, because the 'old guard' remain the 'old guard' through several managers, because they are better than every 'new guard'.

Fletcher (barring an excellent couple of months, 3 years ago) & Graham have stolen a living here in the main, as has Wickham to a lesser extent (as he has been very young, hasn't been fit, or been on loan for good chunks of his time). However, Giaccherini, Altidore, Scocco, Buckley, Bridcutt, Roberge, Mavrias, Moberg-Karlsson, Diakite, Cabral, Gomez, Rodwell have all arrived from Di Canio onwards, at a sum total of £37m quid and king's ransom in wages...what contribution have we had from them that makes them less blameworthy?

 

[Crammy Mackem]

The only players that have been here through Bruce, MON, Di Canio & Poyet are Cattermole, Wickham, O'Shea, Brown, Larsson. Fletcher, Graham & Johnson through 3 of them.

Cattermole, O'Shea, Larsson and Johnson are probably our best players consistently (Pantilimon also), so they are certainly not to blame.
Fletcher & Wickham you can argue that case against them, in terms of output, lack of consistency etc, I'll grant you that; however, Poyet currently would be claiming a giro if it weren't for stumbling upon playing Wickham in an emergency, and he's played him anywhere but CF since. Brown has had a ropey season, and is on the way out really, but he was instrumental last year in keeping us up aswell.

The argument of everything being the fault of the 'old guard' is bollocks, because the 'old guard' remain the 'old guard' through several managers, because they are better than every 'new guard'.

Fletcher (barring an excellent couple of months, 3 years ago) & Graham have stolen a living here in the main, as has Wickham to a lesser extent (as he has been very young, hasn't been fit, or been on loan for good chunks of his time). However, Giaccherini, Altidore, Scocco, Buckley, Bridcutt, Roberge, Mavrias, Moberg-Karlsson, Diakite, Cabral, Gomez, Rodwell have all arrived from Di Canio onwards, at a sum total of £37m quid and king's ransom in wages...what contribution have we had from them that makes them less blameworthy?

Couldn't put it much better.

The Exile always seems to blame the so called players who have been with all of the managers, but when you look at who they are, it can't be the case.

 

[Perryqhill]

One of my main concerns is actually the signing of Defoe.

When throughout his time here or at Brighton has he ever moulded a side to fit in a player of Defoes mould?

Very rarely Id say.

In a nutshell - he's winging it. He's gone from something set in stone, to a new shiny formation, to telling us how good Adam Johnson might be centrally, to not even playing a similar attacking type player in a week or so. He's blaming players, fans, recruitment.... I don't think he's got any real confidence in what he's doing, so why are we expected to anymore?

Couldn't put it much better.

The Exile always seems to blame the so called players who have been with all of the managers, but when you look at who they are, it can't be the case.

I don't think he's ever got over the PDC situation, as he always harks back to the few that stood up to him and labelled them as lazy and unprofessional. Hence despite some of those being our better players they're fare game for him. Meanwhile we have about 25 players signed in the meantime who contribute nowt.

 

[East Riding Mackem]

In a nutshell - he's winging it. He's gone from something set in stone, to a new shiny formation, to telling us how good Adam Johnson might be centrally, to not even playing a similar attacking type player in a week or so. I don't think he's got any real confidence in what he's doing, so why are we expected to anymore?

Some truth in this, also the signing of Rodwell seems to have been made because he was available rather than any deep thinking about how he would fit into a system. Defoe too, I'm pleased he's here but he's thrown out the precious 433 to accommodate him and I seriously doubt we have the right personnel for 352 either in defence or midfield. It might work out with Johnson in there but a huge amount now hinges on the player himself and whether or not he can adapt to that role having played right wing for about nine seasons.

 

[Bud The Horse]

Well lets have them....

We have (for brief spells) played some decent football out from the back under him, and it gave us another dimension to the hoof ball to a lone front man. Better than O'neil, better than keane, Bruce was working with far better player at the time but couldn't manage (keep) them.

But Poyet has gone too far now, he'd rather play out from the back and keep it there for as long as possible. He's getting to most out of the players he has in that system because they lack the quality to play it..... Then surely you should be playing a system that utilises the player's (that we have at our disposal) quality.....

 

[Crammy Mackem]

Some truth in this, also the signing of Rodwell seems to have been made because he was available rather than any deep thinking about how he would fit into a system. Defoe too, I'm pleased he's here but he's thrown out the precious 433 to accommodate him and I seriously doubt we have the right personnel for 352 either in defence or midfield. It might work out with Johnson in there but a huge amount now hinges on the player himself and whether or not he can adapt to that role having played right wing for about nine seasons.

Totally.

I had a look through some of the old posts on the Brighton forum and nearly every match report had them playing 1 up front, be it Ulloa, Mackail Smith or Ashley Barnes.

It would also pretty much always involve a 4-1-4-1 formation with Bridcutt being the holding midfielder.

I seem to recall last season Poyet searching for an answer, 3-5-2 away at Arsenal Spurs and Liverpool and getting beat (thrashed) in two of those. Id argue we had better players playing in that formation too.

It was only when we reverted back to the favoured 4-3-3/4-5-1 where we actually started winning games.

Why he's decided to return to a plan that ultimately failed and is worrying.