Battle of the Somme

[mack17]

Anyone else done the battlefield tour in France and Belguim, amazing. One of the best things I've done.

Did a four day trip to Ypres last year with Grandbairns school last year, Tyne Cot, Passchendale museum, Hill 60, lots of stuff, very thought provoking, young kids were very respectful, grandson carried a wreath at the Menin Gate ceremony on the Saturday night . Going to Bruges with the lads later this year, going on another ww1 trip while we are there. edit, there is a very small cemetery on the route round the city walls of Ypres, about ten graves of Maoris all killed on New years eve, can't remember what year, it makes you wonder what happened to the poor souls.

 

[Paddy O'Dors]

I did vimy ridge, menin gate was brilliant on the night, Beaumont hamel, devills wood, Tyne cot cemetery.
Also the site of a huge explosion from the tunnellers

Hawthorn Ridge? Or Lochnagar? I've been ower like, excellent like you say.

 

[mickb2112]

That sort of hand wringing, soft cock thinking is precisely why WW2 happened.

I think it`s that sort of belligerence that made us crash head first into war in the first place. Maybe if there was more had ringing and actual thinking it could have been avoided. But then it`s easy being tough and declaring war when you know you`ll never have face the consequences of your decision and that you`ll have a load of willing and many not so willing soldiers do the dirty fighting on your behalf.

 

[englishman abroad]

July 1st is a Day of Remembrance in Newfoundland.

It was not part of Canada in 1916 and that day at the Somme The Newfoundland Regiment was almost wiped out. When roll call was taken that night, only 68 men answered their names - 324 were killed, or missing and presumed dead, and 386 were wounded.

The Blue Putties, they didn't even have full battledress, the wives made up the trousers out old demin. The NFR and a Manchester regiment had the worst causalty rate in WWI

 

[peil]

There's a school of thought that you can see the Franco-Prussian war, WW1 and WW2 as essentially one long series of campaigns with periods of ceasefire in between and it only stopped with the signing of the coal and steel treaty in Paris.

 

[SuperGerryHarrison]

But as soon as it was known that the German positions had not been destroyed, why did the battle continue until November at such a high costs. Liddle Hart, an officer in WWI and a senior strategist in WWII said that a full frontal assault against a heavily defended position should never be attempted.

I know they were trying to break the deadlock but it still seems the height of idiocy to continue to launch attacks over a period of months. It didn`t work at Loos in 1915 and it failed badly the following year at Passchendaele after an initial success at Messines.


I don`t understand your comment. which bit was hand wringing, soft cock thinking??

As Harry Patch, the last veteran of WWI, and one more than qualified to talk, said, it was legalised murder. Why couldn`t they sort it around a table. They ended up negotiating around a table, why didn`t they do that and avoid all of those deaths.

The Somme was continued well past its sell by date from a perspective of hoping for any material strategic advantage in that battlefront.

The main reason we fought so long was to provide relief to the French who were getting a pasting at Verdun. If the Germans had broken the French at Verdun the war may have been lost

 

[mickb2112]

The Somme was continued well past its sell by date from a perspective of hoping for any material strategic advantage in that battlefront.

The main reason we fought so long was to provide relief to the French who were getting a pasting at Verdun. If the Germans had broken the French at Verdun the war may have been lost

Verdun was seen as France`s focal point. Falkenhayn thought they would defend at all costs and thought if he pummelled the French into oblivion then Britain would fall. I read somewhere that 100 shells landed for every square metre at Verdun. The French rotated virtually every soldier in their army in and out of Verdun through the only passable road. To those who say that French are cowards and surrender easily, Verdun shatters that myth beyond doubt.

There's a school of thought that you can see the Franco-Prussian war, WW1 and WW2 as essentially one long series of campaigns with periods of ceasefire in between and it only stopped with the signing of the coal and steel treaty in Paris.

Some argue that the overall conflict only ended when the Berlin wall came down at the end of the 1980`s.

 

[Deleted member 15970]

60,000 casualties in the first day alone. What a total waste.
How Europe could have got itself into such a mess is beyond comprehension.
The Somme was instigated to take pressure of the French at Verdun and should also be remembered. The French suffered carnage there.

I don't know how you can appreciate the carnage suffered at Verdun and then say this;

But as soon as it was known that the German positions had not been destroyed, why did the battle continue until November at such a high costs.

From 1st June five French infantry regiments were affected by episodes of "collective indiscipline". Two French Lieutenants, Henri Herduin and Pierre Millant, were summarily shot on 11th June (but later exonerated). Yes this wasn't on the scale of later French army mutinies but the French commanders were seriously worried about the morale of their troops and the start of the Somme offensive was brought forward a month to ease pressure on French forces. The 1st day of the Somme offensive was 131st day of the battle of Verdun (which then continued up to 19th December).

The battle of the Somme is often viewed as a failure, like here;

The British suffered around 420,000 casualties, the French 195,000 and the Germans around 650,000. Only in the sense of relieving the French at Verdun can the British have claimed any measure of success (see -http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwone/battle_somme.shtml)

But it should be remembered that the offensive was planned by the French Commander in Chief, Joffre, as a battle of attrition, the aim being to drain the German forces of reserves, and territorial gain was only a secondary aim (see http://www.firstworldwar.com/battles/somme.htm)

 

[peil]

To those who say that French are cowards and surrender easily, Verdun shatters that myth beyond doubt.

France was bled white at Verdun, I can't say I'm surprised it coloured the thinking of the politicians in ther period leading up to WW2 and in the opening of the French campaign.
To know that you would ask men to lay down their lives again, so soon, ask the same mothers and fathers to send their remaining sons and grandsons.

 

[mickb2112]

I don't know how you can appreciate the carnage suffered at Verdun and then say this;


From 1st June five French infantry regiments were affected by episodes of "collective indiscipline". Two French Lieutenants, Henri Herduin and Pierre Millant, were summarily shot on 11th June (but later exonerated). Yes this wasn't on the scale of later French army mutinies but the French commanders were seriously worried about the morale of their troops and the start of the Somme offensive was brought forward a month to ease pressure on French forces. The 1st day of the Somme offensive was 131st day of the battle of Verdun (which then continued up to 19th December).

The battle of the Somme is often viewed as a failure, like here;


But it should be remembered that the offensive was planned by the French Commander in Chief, Joffre, as a battle of attrition, the aim being to drain the German forces of reserves, and territorial gain was only a secondary aim (see http://www.firstworldwar.com/battles/somme.htm)

I say that because 500,000 men is a hell of a lot of lives to lose on frontal assaults against heavily defended positions. I know tunnelling, tanks and aerial reconnaissance and other innovations came but surely there must have been other ways to relieve the pressure on Verdun than months of slogging it out and half a million deaths. I understand that it was the allied initiative to drive the Germans out but at what point do you stop sending men out to an almost certain death???

 

[monkeytassle]

60,000 casualties in the first day alone. What a total waste.
How Europe could have got itself into such a mess is beyond comprehension.
The Somme was instigated to take pressure of the French at Verdun and should also be remembered. The French suffered carnage there.

I visited the Somme battlefields last summer and am lining up a Verdun visit just this very day. I`d like to be back over The Somme for the centenary next summer as well.


I read that too. He suggested that because 90% of soldiers returned home it wasn`t as bad as the established historians would have us think. 20 million casualties is a pretty horrific statistic and what of the ones who survived but have terrible physical and mental injuries that they would never live normal lives.

No amount of re-telling the history can take away from the fact that WWI and ultimately WWII are stains on human history and could and should have been avoided.

I think we already spoke about this but I did verdun last year and it was very humbling.

The issue with ww1 was the crossover between cavalry warfare and modern warfare. We just didn't adapt. By fuck the boys that went to war deserve all of our respect.

 

[mickb2112]

I don't know how you can appreciate the carnage suffered at Verdun and then say this;


From 1st June five French infantry regiments were affected by episodes of "collective indiscipline". Two French Lieutenants, Henri Herduin and Pierre Millant, were summarily shot on 11th June (but later exonerated). Yes this wasn't on the scale of later French army mutinies but the French commanders were seriously worried about the morale of their troops and the start of the Somme offensive was brought forward a month to ease pressure on French forces. The 1st day of the Somme offensive was 131st day of the battle of Verdun (which then continued up to 19th December).

The battle of the Somme is often viewed as a failure, like here;


But it should be remembered that the offensive was planned by the French Commander in Chief, Joffre, as a battle of attrition, the aim being to drain the German forces of reserves, and territorial gain was only a secondary aim (see http://www.firstworldwar.com/battles/somme.htm)

I have seen the tactic of attrition quoted by Falkenhayn and the British during Verdun and Somme was retrospectivel;y adopted to justify the failure to break through and the high casualty rate. It makes their tactic look more of a success. I read several sources that all say the tactic was to break through the lines and break the stalemate not grind the opposition down. Just a theory but quite plausible in my view.

France was bled white at Verdun, I can't say I'm surprised it coloured the thinking of the politicians in ther period leading up to WW2 and in the opening of the French campaign.
To know that you would ask men to lay down their lives again, so soon, ask the same mothers and fathers to send their remaining sons and grandsons.

Absolutely. The spectre of Verdun and the Western Front hung wearily over France in the run up to WWII. Can`t blame them at all for not wanting to repeat that.

I think we already spoke about this but I did verdun last year and it was very humbling.

The issue with ww1 was the crossover between cavalry warfare and modern warfare. We just didn't adapt. By fuck the boys that went to war deserve all of our respect.

This is most definitely on my list for next year. Just need to double check half term dates for my son and if they are OK, we`re off for the centenary. Would love to be at The Somme for July 1st too.

 

[Scimmy]

Can't even begin to imagine the horrors of that battle. Proper blokes looking death in the face yet still advancing for king and country. Legends.

Sorry mate to tell you this and spoil your misconception. If they hadn't "advanced for King and Country" their own commanders would have shot them for cowardice.

Edit: I see on reading the rest of the thread that this has been already said, but needs to be hammered home.

 

[monkeytassle]

Sorry mate to tell you this and spoil your misconception. If they hadn't "advanced for King and Country" their own commanders would have shot them for cowardice.

Edit: I see on reading the rest of the thread that this has been already said, but needs to be hammered home.

20/20 hindsight there mate

 

[Scimmy]

20/20 hindsight there mate

No hindsight at the time for those poor souls MT. They knew that they were between a rock and a hard place. It's been romanticised as patriotism and I'm sure a lot of it was, but ask yourself: would you rush to almost certain death given the option?

 

[Deleted member 15970]

I say that because 500,000 men is a hell of a lot of lives to lose on frontal assaults against heavily defended positions. I know tunnelling, tanks and aerial reconnaissance and other innovations came but surely there must have been other ways to relieve the pressure on Verdun than months of slogging it out and half a million deaths. I understand that it was the allied initiative to drive the Germans out but at what point do you stop sending men out to an almost certain death???

I agree with you, but you have to look at things as they were at the time and not with a modern view.

The point about the Somme was that it was the junction of British and French sectors. We could add both armed forces together and ultimately give a larger fighting force. They expected heavy losses as the price of 'doing business'. They were mostly an amateur army and this was where they learned big lessons about use of artillery, coordination of effort and use of new technology.

The creeping barrage used from day one of the Somme battle were done to a strict timetable (the technology of the time didn't really allow for anything else) and soon left the troops behind and freed the defenders to exit their deep bunkers. This was adjusted later as spotter planes had radio telegraphy and could relay information quicker.

We couldn't just set up other battles as we just were not able to set up the logistics for another set piece battle quickly, even if we could get things like railways put in place without being noticed by the Germans.

 

[nelford_safc]

Sorry mate to tell you this and spoil your misconception. If they hadn't "advanced for King and Country" their own commanders would have shot them for cowardice.

Edit: I see on reading the rest of the thread that this has been already said, but needs to be hammered home.

They knew they were going to die regardless. Why anyone would want to put a slur on the bravery of the fighting Tommy is beyond me.

 

[smoker]

I think it`s that sort of belligerence that made us crash head first into war in the first place. Maybe if there was more had ringing and actual thinking it could have been avoided. But then it`s easy being tough and declaring war when you know you`ll never have face the consequences of your decision and that you`ll have a load of willing and many not so willing soldiers do the dirty fighting on your behalf.

Revisionist bilge. Herbert Asquith's son was killed on the Somme.

WW1 was a culmination of 50 years of Prussian militarism and an obsession with their right to a 'place in the sun'.

 

[Wierd Valley Mackem]

I agree with you, but you have to look at things as they were at the time and not with a modern view.

The point about the Somme was that it was the junction of British and French sectors. We could add both armed forces together and ultimately give a larger fighting force. They expected heavy losses as the price of 'doing business'. They were mostly an amateur army and this was where they learned big lessons about use of artillery, coordination of effort and use of new technology.

The creeping barrage used from day one of the Somme battle were done to a strict timetable (the technology of the time didn't really allow for anything else) and soon left the troops behind and freed the defenders to exit their deep bunkers. This was adjusted later as spotter planes had radio telegraphy and could relay information quicker.

We couldn't just set up other battles as we just were not able to set up the logistics for another set piece battle quickly, even if we could get things like railways put in place without being noticed by the Germans.

Good post, many of the first objectives were taken and it was the follow up that failed badly. The South (iirc) where the French and British joined had the greatest success. Also when people see casualties they were huge, but most of them were wounded not killed. We just weren't capable of deep penetration until the advent of mass tank attacks, the Generals did the best they could this Lions led by Donkeys is bollocks.

 

[smoker]

As Harry Patch, the last veteran of WWI, and one more than qualified to talk, said, it was legalised murder. Why couldn`t they sort it around a table. They ended up negotiating around a table, why didn`t they do that and avoid all of those deaths.

You've been watching too much Blackadder mate.

"a war is unavoidable and the sooner the better" Moltke