VARguments

[bernardbresslaw]

As mentioned, where do you draw the onside/offside line if it's ahead or behind as no matter where it is then someone will say it's 1mm out or mention toenails. The automated stuff is is far more consistent as it's always down to a few cms either way now and less than the manual VAR offside lines, whereas the old way a linesman could be yards out either way.

I think he looked more offside because he was also well ahead of the German defender beside him. This made him look more offside than he was as few will have noticed that defender's trailing leg who was yards away. Most people look at the torso but a trailing leg can make a big difference. The other thing is that there were 3 possible passes in the goal, the 1st being the cross in (he was onside), the 2nd being the flick on header and 3rd being a possible deflection of Hojlund.

Here's the gifs so give them time to load. The 1st is the goal in real time, the 2nd is the semi-automated stuff and the 3rd another angle replay.

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The frame they froze it on is the deflection off Hojlund

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This is another angle frozen when it hits Hojlund (they actually froze it on the header but I've switched the freeze frame). He looks more than a toenail offside and that's what I was saying about it being hard when there's a defender's trailing leg as it can make a big difference.

+++ Germany 🇩🇪 v Denmark 🇩🇰 kick off 2000 Dortmund ITV1 STV ITVX ITV Player +++

Can you please not quote me again please? I'll quote whoever I like thanks

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If only you knew that the rule is the first contact, not when it leaves the passing player's foot then maybe you wouldn't have posted as much

The ball is scanned 500 times a second now with the semi-automated crap so it knows down to 0.002 of a second when it's touched. The speed of light only covers 373 miles in that time so a defender and an attacker won't be moving that far in that time. The computer tracks the players with the limb tracking crap and is also clever enough to calculate where the players are. It's not perfect but the margin of error is smaller than the manual line crap that VAR used in the Premier League. It's not going away no matter how much hate there is as they won't leave it to linesman to guess and be far more inconsistent with far greater error of margin. That's why there should be a thicker line to give all the margin of error to the attacker so when offside is given, it's 100% offside no question.

Are you sure?
"Offside is judged at the moment the ball is last touched by the most recent teammate to touch the ball."

 

[ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK]

Are you sure?
"Offside is judged at the moment the ball is last touched by the most recent teammate to touch the ball."

I'm 100% sure yet see many people on here mention "leaves the foot" so always correct them so where is your quote from? Just somewhere on the internet as this is what it says in the FA laws and will also be in IFAB somewhere.

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Yeah, hence I think it needs refining

The offside stuff: the semi automated thing works well (just as quick as looking at a linesman almost), but I’d build in a margin of error to get rid of the weird ones. That will be just as quick and be more accurate

The handball rule is the problem for me, rather than VAR. Needs sorting quickly

VAR as a concept needs some work. Sending the ref to the monitor is bollocks. If there is a significant miss (not a wrong decision, a miss) then the VAR overrules. Serious foul play and the like.

I agree with the margin of error and have said it since they first mentioned the semi automated stuff and a close decision came about. They brought in thicker lines in 2021/22 season to give an advantage to the attacker yet there's no advantage with the SAOT which is just baffling!

I knocked up an image earlier of the Denmark offside with the thicker line below and that would be a positive to eliminate any question of being offside being given incorrectly. It would mean that close ones like this would favour the attacker and he would be given onside even though he may be marginally offside. It's not going away but they could help get rid of the toenail debate with the thicker lines. There's no doubt similar things like this will happen as it's not the 1st nor the last and it will rightly cause uproar. It's as if they've forgotten what happened with the lines on the manual and just want it to be precise either way, rather than eliminate the doubt of offside completely.

I also agree that VAR should just call it rather than piss about with the ref (basically main ref in the video room having final say).

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[bernardbresslaw]

I'm 100% sure yet see many people on here mention "leaves the foot" so always correct them so where is your quote from? Just somewhere on the internet as this is what it says in the FA laws and will also be in IFAB somewhere.

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I agree with the margin of error and have said it since they first mentioned the semi automated stuff and a close decision came about. They brought in thicker lines in 2021/22 season to give an advantage to the attacker yet there's no advantage with the SAOT which is just baffling!

I knocked up an image earlier of the Denmark offside with the thicker line below and that would be a positive to eliminate any question of being offside being given incorrectly. It would mean that close ones like this would favour the attacker and he would be given onside even though he may be marginally offside. It's not going away but they could help get rid of the toenail debate with the thicker lines. There's no doubt similar things like this will happen as it's not the 1st nor the last and it will rightly cause uproar. It's as if they've forgotten what happened with the lines on the manual and just want it to be precise either way, rather than eliminate the doubt of offside completely.

I also agree that VAR should just call it rather than piss about with the ref (basically main ref in the video room having final say).

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Fair enough, but VAR shouldn't get involved unless it's "clear and obvious ". Nobody watching from the stands or the telly would have objected if the goal had been given.
Even afterwards it's hard to argue that the attacker is gaining an unfair advantage, which is what the spirit of the offside rule is about?

 

[ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK]

Fair enough, but VAR shouldn't get involved unless it's "clear and obvious ". Nobody watching from the stands or the telly would have objected if the goal had been given.
Even afterwards it's hard to argue that the attacker is gaining an unfair advantage, which is what the spirit of the offside rule is about?

Nah, offside is never going to be clear and obvious as it would just open it up to interpretation if you brought the C&O crap into it. I think the German fans in the ground would have objected for starters if it had been given. So would we if it was given against us. Offside can be simple and it's just a question of where do they draw the line? It could be where it is now and they just make the line thicker to eliminate any decisions being given offside incorrectly. Or they change the law to give more of an advantage to the attacker but it can't be the daylight rule as it just wouldn't be feasible and work as has been shown before.

There is a potential loophole in that 1st point of contact offside law and I'm surprised we haven't seen it attempted yet. The passing player could scoop up the ball on his foot while an attacker is onside, all while still touching the ball, the attacker runs forward and the defender tries to play him offside but then the passing player flicks the ball forward to the 'offside' attacker who was onside at 1st point of contact. It's shown from around 35 secs in this video

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It's certainly possible that some players could do it but how does it work with a goalkeeper when he throws a ball? His first touch is well before he releases it so how would they work that out? This Iranian keeper would be canny as players could just stay on their own half until the keeper picks it up and then they suddenly run 'offside' as the defenders try to play the offside trap and the keeper throws it to them, all while touching the ball throughout, rather than kick it

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[Hardyman's Yugo]

I don’t get what the big problem is when it comes to VAR and offside. It either is offside or it isn’t, no opinion is needed, and unless you accept the technology is by far the best way of judging that fact it will always end up with opinions that differ between referees and wrong decisions being made.

Also, players are becoming more athletic and faster all the time and it’s harder to judge with the naked eye

 

[bernardbresslaw]

Nah, offside is never going to be clear and obvious as it would just opening it up to interpretation if you brought the C&O crap into it. I think the German fans in the ground would have objected for starters if it had been given. So would we if it was given against us. Offside can be simple and it's just a question of where do they draw the line? It could be where it is now and they just make the line thicker to eliminate any decisions being given offside incorrectly. Or they change the law to give more of an advantage to the attacker but it can't be the daylight rule as it just wouldn't be feasible and work as has been shown before.

There is a potential loophole in that 1st point of contact offside law and I'm surprised we haven't seen it attempted yet. The passing player could scoop up the ball on his foot while an attacker is onside, all while still touching the ball, the attacker runs forward and the defender tries to play him offside but then the passing player flicks the ball forward to the 'offside' attacker who was onside at 1st point of contact. It's shown from around 35 secs in this video

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It's certainly possible that some players could do it but how does it work with a goalkeeper when he throws a ball? His first touch is well before he releases it so how would they work that out? This Iranian keeper would be canny as players could just stay on their own half until the keeper picks it up and then they suddenly run 'offside' as the defenders try to play the offside trap and the keeper throws it to them, all while touching the ball throughout, rather than kick it

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I get all that but still disagree that German fans in the ground would have objected if it had been given, they'd have seen he was basically inline with the last defender.

I don’t get what the big problem is when it comes to VAR and offside. It either is offside or it isn’t, no opinion is needed, and unless you accept the technology is by far the best way of judging that fact it will always end up with opinions that differ between referees and wrong decisions being made.

Also, players are becoming more athletic and faster all the time and it’s harder to judge with the naked eye

Or you just don't care that sometimes the officials on the pitch are wrong because it just makes the game better? Obvious offsides could be flagged up (remember the "clear and obvious " we were told about).

 

[Hardyman's Yugo]

I get all that but still disagree that German fans in the ground would have objected if it had been given, they'd have seen he was basically inline with the last defender.

Or you just don't care that sometimes the officials on the pitch are wrong because it just makes the game better? Obvious offsides could be flagged up (remember the "clear and obvious " we were told about).

I’ll say it again, what constitutes obvious offside? How far beyond the last defender is the attacker allowed to go before it is obvious and how do we get consistency between referees?

 

[Ohnonotagain]

It’s either offside or not, the line has been drawn. The only options are make the line thicker, get rid of offside totally, get rid of VAR or carry on as we are.

 

[Nelson!]

As mentioned, ….

What a f***ing joke this post is. The game used to be enjoyable and spontaneous. Unfortunately like most things it’s being reduced to zeros and ones because a certain section of society is obsessed with tech.

Fuck it. It’s garbage, and you can bet if the money made from it dries up then so will the inevitability of it ruining football.

The same idiots who love it probably all drive teslas and suck Elon off on Twitter….sorry, “x”.

Fair enough, but VAR shouldn't get involved unless it's "clear and obvious ". Nobody watching from the stands or the telly would have objected if the goal had been given.
Even afterwards it's hard to argue that the attacker is gaining an unfair advantage, which is what the spirit of the offside rule is about?

Spot on, but they can’t help themselves because they think everything needs to be decided by machines.

 

[PTR]

If you are referencing the Germany Denmark game then aye it has spoiled a decent contest. Joke

Just watched the highlights
Being right really ruins the sport.

I think their penalty taker might have stopped as well, which isn't allowed.

 

[Fleagle]

I get all that but still disagree that German fans in the ground would have objected if it had been given, they'd have seen he was basically inline with the last defender.

You can legitimately ask why people say that, though. If the ball was over the line by that small margin on the goal line technology, nobody would be arguing it was “basically on the line” so the goal should not be given. Offside is a line decision. We can now give it as accurately as we want. So we do. Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[bernardbresslaw]

You can legitimately ask why people say that, though. If the ball was over the line by that small margin on the goal line technology, nobody would be arguing it was “basically on the line” so the goal should not be given. Offside is a line decision. We can now give it as accurately as we want. So we do. Makes perfect sense to me.

Sorry but it doesn't make any sense to me at all. I don't want or need football to be perfect.

 

[Flea Market Trader]

Just watched the highlights
Being right really ruins the sport.

I think their penalty taker might have stopped as well, which isn't allowed.

That’s correct he did stop. I thought the same while watching it. Denmark must feel as though they were robbed in a sense last night.

 

[Deleted member 52509]

Gutted for that Denmark full back last night- scores great goal ( offside by a toe nail -fair enough ) ..but that hand ball by same player -absolute joke
Let’s go back to the refs decision-spoiling the flow of the game and dare I say it the celebration and passion that is “ the game “

 

[legend7]

That’s correct he did stop. I thought the same while watching it. Denmark must feel as though they were robbed in a sense last night.

Aye I wondered if they had changed the rules as there was one the other night too.

 

[sunderpitt]

A millimeter offside is ridiculous, needs a buffer obviously...

As for the ludicrous and wrong handball..

Are the Germans just lucky or???

 

[chunkyshanhawk53]

That’s an example of where it works.

 

[What A Waster]

A millimeter offside is ridiculous, needs a buffer obviously...

As for the ludicrous and wrong handball..

Are the Germans just lucky or???

What if the attacker is just 1mm past the buffer?

All you're doing is moving the line with this buffer, but no matter where the line is there'll always be marginal calls.

 

[sunderpitt]

What if the attacker is just re past the buffer?

All you're doing is moving the line with this buffer, but no matter where the line is there'll always be marginal calls.

Yes I take your point, the line has to he drawn somewhere, I happen to think say 6 to 12 inches make more sense.

One of the factors for me is that, there is a second or two from when the passing player first touches the ball, which then deflates a little before releasing from his foot. Technology cannot really measure that, hence the need for a buffer. Toenails etc just makes football look silly.
Even in cricket they have a sort of buffer, 'umpires call', recognising Technology isn't the be all and end all. Except for goalmouth, in or out.

 

[Matnab]

What if the attacker is just 1mm past the buffer?

All you're doing is moving the line with this buffer, but no matter where the line is there'll always be marginal calls.

Yeah but at least the offside would be more justified. I don't have a massive issue with offside is offside but I'd give a small margin of grace to stop the moaning.