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VAR has ruined top level football.

Matnab said:
I never said 'it works'.

All the hallmarks of someone getting upset are there but I'm not sure why.

The abusive language.
The laughy face.
Making up things that haven't been said.

I'll leave it there.
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I'm not upset at all, it's actually quite funny the things you've said to try and defend shocking decisions. Coming out with obvious shit like no two incidents are 100% the same, as if that even needs to be said.

Also trying to say that these types of decisions are always subjective when PGMOL have literally apologised in certain cases. Also many others where, after review, the overwhelming consensus is that they got it wrong when you look at them objectively against what's in the rulebook.

They don't know their arse from their elbow and everyone can see it. It's got nothing to do with subjectivity.
 
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Lonz said:
I'm really not sure whether I would enjoy VAR week in, week out, but aren't we all in favour of the officials getting the decisions correct? The linesman didn't get that one correct and Coventry would've been awarded a goal that shouldn't have counted. It would have made for a thrilling end to this particular game but it would've incorrect nonetheless. I wouldn't want Sunderland to have been on the wrong end of that incorrect decision.
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I think we are disagreeing about two different things.

I’d be annoyed if we lost to a winner that should have been disallowed because of a clear handball, foul, the ball didn’t actually cross the line or blatant offside - missed by the officials - a bad mistake.

That’s what VAR was apparently for.

The linesman didn’t get this wrong. It wasn’t a mistake. This was so tight that at real time no human eye would be able to call it. It’s a 50:50 guess. Offside was not introduced to football for this. It was to stop teams from pushing the boundaries within the spirit of the game. ‘Goal poaching’ as you’d call it in the playground.

It’s absolutely ridiculous the way it’s applied today and VAR has taken it to a whole new level of stupidity, killing the game and ruining incredible joyous moments, not to mention the delays and non existent communication to supporters inside the stadium.

There is nothing at all to like about it, unless you are David Ellery or some other no mark disciplinarian referee or jobsworth at PGMOL.
 
Sporty said:
Read what I've said again about comparing the 2 images.

Surely you don't believe that in the milliseconds between the 1st image showing Haji Wright clearly offside that he transported himself onside and then back offside again in the 2nd image that is well after the ball is played?
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You’ve nailed it in this thread tbf

No idea why anyone is still arguing.
 
Sporty said:
Am I being whoosed here? You do know how offside works don't you and there's a clear gap between Bissaka and Wright. Again look at the gap near the linesman to get some perspective on what I mean by clear.

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But if, as you say, we are talking about milliseconds, how do we know that if we take a single fare either side of that fare, that it doesn’t show different be? How do we know that line there is the exact line to use? There’s literally no way of getting it right.

It’s not like tennis where the one is cleaner and orient move, or even goal line tech.
 
Sporty said:
Am I being whoosed here? You do know how offside works don't you and there's a clear gap between Bissaka and Wright. Again look at the gap near the linesman to get some perspective on what I mean by clear.

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Would be dead interesting to see the frame before and after that image, to see if the ball is still attached to the foot and if the 2 players positions are any different.
 
Turnip from the Tip said:
I think we are disagreeing about two different things.

I’d be annoyed if we lost to a winner that should have been disallowed because of a clear handball, foul, the ball didn’t actually cross the line or blatant offside - missed by the officials - a bad mistake.

That’s what VAR was apparently for.

The linesman didn’t get this wrong. It wasn’t a mistake. This was so tight that at real time no human eye would be able to call it. It’s a 50:50 guess. Offside was not introduced to football for this. It was to stop teams from pushing the boundaries within the spirit of the game. ‘Goal poaching’ as you’d call it in the playground.

It’s absolutely ridiculous the way it’s applied today and VAR has taken it to a whole new level of stupidity, killing the game and ruining incredible joyous moments, not to mention the delays and non existent communication to supporters inside the stadium.

There is nothing at all to like about it, unless you are David Ellery or some other no mark disciplinarian referee or jobsworth at PGMOL.
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I think I understand what you're saying: if it's not obvious that it's offside then it shouldn't be given as such. Or if the linesman gets it wrong and it wasn't obvious then it shouldn't be overturned. Have I understood you correctly?

The problem is the linesman did get it wrong. I am certain he didn't think he got it wrong but he did. I am also certain that I would want the goal overturned if I was a Man Utd fan because didn't flag the player as offside when he was.

Let's say the player was 5cm further back and onside. I think there is an argument that the goal would've been scored anyway. If the linesman had waved his flag in error in this hypothetical event (i.e. flagged him as offside when he wasn't), would you want the decision to be overturned? Bringing referees', fans', managers' opinions into the equation is going to create even more room for debate than we have now. I understand and agree that this particular example is very, very close and the goal probably would have been scored if the attacker was 5cm further back and onside, but we can't leave that open for debate when it's not necessary, in my opinion. It creates more problems than it solves.

Now, delays etc. you have a point with, and if we can get to a stage where something as black and white as VAR offsides are close to being as real-time as a linesman's flag going up then I am all for it. We do, however, need to agree on what the rules are for everyone in the game in the interest of fairness and consistency.
 
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HellsBells said:
But if, as you say, we are talking about milliseconds, how do we know that if we take a single fare either side of that fare, that it doesn’t show different be? How do we know that line there is the exact line to use? There’s literally no way of getting it right.

It’s not like tennis where the one is cleaner and orient move, or even goal line tech.
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If he's offside in the frame before the potential ball kick and offside for the frames that clearly shows he's kicked the ball (the 2nd image) then he's offside. Again you're talking mm when in reality it wasn't mm when you use the linesman as scale as to how far apart the lines actually are and not beside the players.

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PTR said:
Would be dead interesting to see the frame before and after that image, to see if the ball is still attached to the foot and if the 2 players positions are any different.
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It's been done and Wright is still clearly offside well before ball is kicked and he's still offside when it's clearly been kicked. Remember the law is the 1st touch of the ball and not when it leaves the foot like some mistakenly think. It's a good few inches when you consider the width if the gap using some perspective.

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Sporty said:
If he's offside in the frame before the potential ball kick and offside for the frames that clearly shows he's kicked the ball (the 2nd image) then he's offside. Again you're talking mm when in reality it wasn't mm when you use the linesman as scale as to how far apart the lines actually are and not beside the players.

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It's been done and Wright is still clearly offside well before ball is kicked and he's still offside when it's clearly been kicked. Remember the law is the 1st touch of the ball and not when it leaves the foot like some mistakenly think. It's a good few inches when you consider the width if the gap using some perspective.

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Lonz said:
I think I understand what you're saying: if it's not obvious that it's offside then it shouldn't be given as such. Or if the linesman gets it wrong and it wasn't obvious then it shouldn't be overturned. Have I understood you correctly?

The problem is the linesman did get it wrong. I am certain he didn't think he got it wrong but he did. I am also certain that I would want the goal overturned if I was a Man Utd fan because didn't flag the player as offside when he was.

Let's say the player was 5cm further back and onside. I think there is an argument that the goal would've been scored anyway. If the linesman had waved his flag in error in this hypothetical event (i.e. flagged him as offside when he wasn't), would you want the decision to be overturned? Bringing referees', fans', managers' opinions into the equation is going to create even more room for debate than we have now. I understand and agree that this particular example is very, very close and the goal probably would have been scored if the attacker was 5cm further back and onside, but we can't leave that open for debate when it's not necessary, in my opinion. It creates more problems than it solves.

Now, delays etc. you have a point with, and if we can get to a stage where something as black and white as VAR offsides are close to being as real-time as a linesman's flag going up then I am all for it. We do, however, need to agree on what the rules are for everyone in the game in the interest of fairness and consistency.
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No I completely accept the goal had to be disallowed yesterday. The issue in this is case is the offside law itself. It’s a joke. But VAR is only emphasising how utterly pedantic we have become.

VAR should be looking at:
Incidents missed such as an off the ball stamp, punch or poke in the eye.

Did the ball cross the line goal line or touch line, and missed by officials

Was the foul inside or outside the box?

Missed handball (but first let’s actually understand what constitutes a hand ball offence, because not even the players know right now).

And, if the offside law was fit for purpose, a missed offside too.

Handball and offside laws at the minute are completely stupid. So we have that as the starting point and then VAR putting it even further under the microscope.

The net result is that you just can’t trust a goal any more. The slightest infringement (as judged by a non-football playing panel sat in Andy Townsend’s redundant tactics truck in a field somewhere) is leading to goals being chalked off left right and centre with very little consistency, making Nottm Forest really really mad.

It’s minging. Really really bad. And to absolutely nobodies surprise we are making far more of a mess of this than the rest of the European leagues.
 
Hendon Mad Frog said:
I'm not upset at all, it's actually quite funny the things you've said to try and defend shocking decisions. Coming out with obvious shit like no two incidents are 100% the same, as if that even needs to be said.

Also trying to say that these types of decisions are always subjective when PGMOL have literally apologised in certain cases. Also many others where, after review, the overwhelming consensus is that they got it wrong when you look at them objectively against what's in the rulebook.

They don't know their arse from their elbow and everyone can see it. It's got nothing to do with subjectivity.
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The 'rulebook' doesn't even begin to make most scenarios completely objective. Look at the language..

Unnatural body position
Excessive force
Affecting an opponents ability to play the ball
Out of control

All the language is inevitably subjective.

Yes, you can use previous incidents as precedents but ultimately most big calls whether it be a red card, penalry, handball etc will always be subjective.
There will always be a degree of interpretation.

Of course there have been mistakes made. 15 PGMOL apologies since VAR began. That is not insignificant but it suggests that the mistakes aren't exactly as regular as some might say. They aren't there to cover the refs backsides either. They are a body made up of ex players, coaches etc so they're not just there to spare the official's blushes.

The big problem with VAR is that it isn't being used. Just so you're clear about my point, I'm not saying that VAR is being used as it should. We are still getting poor decisions but that's because we are leaving the call with the on field ref. The onfield ref will inevitably make a sh*t load of bad calls. The problem is that VAR isn't being used to 're-ref' scenarios and the onfield decision is being upheld unless thete is a clearly binary reason why it is incorrect.

Ironically, this seems to be what people originally wanted. VAR to only intervene on binary, matter of fact issues'. That's why they've all but stopped overturning on field decisions.

The solution is to get a small panel to adjudicate on big calls in real time from the VAR room. Majority decision carries.
Turnip from the Tip said:
let’s actually understand what constitutes a hand ball offence, because not even the players know right now
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The rules pretty clear tbf. The problem is that it requires the official to make a judgement.
 
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Turnip from the Tip said:
No I completely accept the goal had to be disallowed yesterday. The issue in this is case is the offside law itself. It’s a joke. But VAR is only emphasising how utterly pedantic we have become.

VAR should be looking at:
Incidents missed such as an off the ball stamp, punch or poke in the eye.

Did the ball cross the line goal line or touch line, and missed by officials

Was the foul inside or outside the box?

Missed handball (but first let’s actually understand what constitutes a hand ball offence, because not even the players know right now).

And, if the offside law was fit for purpose, a missed offside too.

Handball and offside laws at the minute are completely stupid. So we have that as the starting point and then VAR putting it even further under the microscope.

The net result is that you just can’t trust a goal any more. The slightest infringement (as judged by a non-football playing panel sat in Andy Townsend’s redundant tactics truck in a field somewhere) is leading to goals being chalked off left right and centre with very little consistency, making Nottm Forest really really mad.

It’s minging. Really really bad. And to absolutely nobodies surprise we are making far more of a mess of this than the rest of the European leagues.
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Who is going to decide when an offside is worthy of being overturned then, and how can we be consistent with it across all games and teams in the league?

I can imagine that it is really, really shit that you have to wait to celebrate a 120th minute winner because VAR needs to get the ruler out but in the case of clear offsides like this, it's worked as intended.

We either rid ourselves of VAR entirely or we try and improve it because on fan likes being on the receiving end of a howler of a decision. We have had our share of them this season.
 
HellsBells said:
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What am I looking for here? I know about the margin of error and it could be anywhere from 1mm to 34cm if 2 players are running against each other at 30kmh as it's a simple calculation between speed, distance and the time being the frame rate of 0.02 seconds.

Though in this instance when 2 players have barely moved their own line and in the next frame after the ball is kicked it's still shows clear offside then that error of margin is irrelevant. That's because there is no doubt about whether the ball has been touched and the true offside lies prior to that point and at the point or after the point of the previous frame. VAR itself uses the frame closest to the point of contact and they use many other angles to determine this and they are far clearer images, not just the crappy quality freeze frame angle they show at the end.

Note that the 2nd image shows the line at Bissaka's shoulder given his foot was planted while running. There's still a clear gap between the lines so it's not even close and I'd dare say even the next frame would show the same, albeit a smaller gap.
 
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Matnab said:
Of course there have been mistakes made. 15 PGMOL apologies since VAR began. That is not insignificant but it suggests that the mistakes aren't exactly as regular as some might say.

The solution is to get a small panel to adjudicate on big calls in real time from the VAR room. Majority decision carries.
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Those were just the absolute howlers where there was no way to save face. There have been many more where the overwhelming consensus is that they got it wrong, but they don't want to admit it because they can get Howard Webb to give a convuluted take on it.

Agreed on your final point, but I can't see it happening
 
Another VAR issue, some are saying the lines for the Cov offside decision is a fix.

Drawn at the vendor of Cov players foot, but half way along ManU player.

They wanted a Manchester Derby II
 
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Hendon Mad Frog said:
Those were just the absolute howlers where there was no way to save face. There have been many more where the overwhelming consensus is that they got it wrong, but they don't want to admit it because they can get Howard Webb to give a convuluted take on it.

Agreed on your final point, but I can't see it happening
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I'm fairly confident that most of the really contentious moments over the last season or so have split opinion fairly evenly but the media who don't like the decision create more noise and therefore create the perception of concensus against the decision.

One thing is for certain, the uproar around refereeing decisions will never go away. Regardless of the 'quality of officials', the rules, the technology, we will have this year after year.
 
Sporty said:
What am I looking for here? I know about the margin of error and it could be anywhere from 1mm to 34cm if 2 players are running against each other at 30kmh as it's a simple calculation between speed, distance and the time being the frame rate of 0.02 seconds.

Though in this instance when 2 players have barely moved their own line and in the next frame after the ball is kicked it's still shows clear offside then that error of margin is irrelevant. That's because there is no doubt about whether the ball has been touched and the true offside lies prior to that point and at the point or after the point of the previous frame. VAR itself uses the frame closest to the point of contact and they use many other angles to determine this and they are far clearer images, not just the crappy quality freeze frame angle they show at the end.

Note that the 2nd image shows the line at Bissaka's shoulder given his foot was planted while running. There's still a clear gap between the lines so it's not even close and I'd dare say even the next frame would show the same, albeit a smaller gap.
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Someone who wrote a thesis on VAR isn’t convinced the technology and frame rates of cameras are good enough for it to be used to make these very fine calls. That’s what you’re looking at.
 
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