Sunderland railway station.

[royaldragon]

Things will continue to change. E tickets will become the norm and there will be huge reductions in manpower right across the railways.

Routes that do not make a profit will get scrapped.

My personal view is ultimately traffic will run to Newcastle not Sunderland and passengers wanting to go onwards will need to use the metro

That sort apathy is a lot of the reason why Sunderland lost it's services/facilities, just accepting things and not fighting back, we as a City need to demand more not less.

 

[PinzaC55]

What's the point in having a fast first class service to London if you then have to get off and trundle back to Sunderland on the local trains. Three hours from London and then hanging about to get back to Sunderland prob looking at an hour. We need a direct rail link to Durham not Newcastle. At least then if you were going to London would not be going in the wrong direction. The Durham coastline needs upgrading too and Leamside reopened. Would free up capacity on the ecml.

I've pointed out on several threads about this subject that it is virtually impossible to reopen the Sunderland -Penshaw -Durham line due to A1(M) cutting through it on the level at Carrville. There also seems to be no interest in either the current government reopening the Leamside or from past or future Labour governments.

 

[Zimba]

I've pointed out on several threads about this subject that it is virtually impossible to reopen the Sunderland -Penshaw -Durham line due to A1(M) cutting through it on the level at Carrville. There also seems to be no interest in either the current government reopening the Leamside or past Labour governments.

It won't happen, but it's not impossible. The A1(M) could easily be diverted if they really wanted to do it but you're right that no government has interest in the rail in the North East or alternatively a new bridge over the Wear. It would actually be quite a useful link but for the opposite way as you could divert freight and the Durham non-stoppers across it and down the rest of the Leamside Line as Durham is pretty congested currently on the ECML.

It's always going to be a bottleneck and one of the worst parts to sort.

 

[Big Jeff]

That sort apathy is a lot of the reason why Sunderland lost it's services/facilities, just accepting things and not fighting back, we as a City need to demand more not less.

The issue is Newcastle is the main North East city. That drives people on here mad but it’s true.

Newcastle will continue to lead the way for the north east but a consequence is other large urban conurbations will suffer.

 

[royaldragon]

Sunderland should be added to the next TPE franchise, as an absolute minimum. (As well as Hartlepool and Middelsbrough).

Middlesbrough are already on the TPE network, I agree about Sunderland and Hartlepool should be on it though.

 

[Lord Nigle]

Theres all manner of reasons why there isn’t regular non-regional services.

It’s not on the main line, there’s a lack of railway sidings and train depot, and lack of capacity on the Newcastle-Sunderland line for trains to frequently have to divert from the depots at Heaton. Also it’s only 20 minutes away from Newcastle Central on a northern service.

Not only all of that, but there just isn’t the demand here to support a regular service.

Give people the choice to decide if driving into cities with expensive fuel and parking is better than a good rail link.

 

[PinzaC55]

Aye I know and my post was about it would be better to develop the line South to benefit Sunderland push trains down to York.

Sunderland shouldn't be an intercity station as it's just in the wrong place and trains to Durham would be economically unsound and extending trains from Newcastle to Sunderland is just pointless as no-one lives in Sunderland city centre anyway so you'd have to get to Sunderland somehow anyway.

WTAF ? Sunderland Station is probably THE most centrally placed station of any city, leastways that I can think of.

 

[Big Jeff]

WTAF ? Sunderland Station is probably THE most centrally placed station of any city, leastways that I can think of.

Apart from Newcastle, Glasgow, Liverpool, London.

Apart from them, absolutely.

oh and Leeds.

And Edinburgh.

 

[PinzaC55]

Apart from Newcastle, Glasgow, Liverpool, London.

Apart from them, absolutely.

oh and Leeds.

And Edinburgh.

Kings Cross isn't in the centre of London marra nor any of the others. When Sunderland Station was built they had to buy the shops and houses and demolish them so they go straight through the centre.

 

[Zimba]

WTAF ? Sunderland Station is probably THE most centrally placed station of any city, leastways that I can think of.

If I want to go to London, I don't care whether it's central to the city or not. If I can't get to the station then it's pointless. Very few people live in Sunderland City Centre and the connections to the station are appalling. If you're going to drive to a station, you might aswell just drive to Durham or Newcastle or better still just drive all the way and the people who live on the Metro can go to Newcastle anyway; no-one is going to get an TPE train to Sunderland to then double back on the Metro to Seaburn, when you can just Metro direct from Newcastle to Seaburn and save money aswell.

No-one from places like London have any reason to be in Sunderland centre either so if they can't get to their final destination ie. Doxford Park then again same applies.

I know some see Sunderland as some sort of haven where everyone wants to do loads of tourist stuff, visit the cinema, go to a wide range of shops and then eat in the wide range of international cuisine on offer but in reality it's the complete opposite and it's like going for a train trip to Luton to the rest of the country.

 

[diggers22]

I think you’re talking a bit off topic here my friend.

My point is that as a resident of Sunderland, I don’t have the option of catching a TPE service from Sunderland down to York.

Under the current arrangements, I’d have to travel north from Sunderland to get on TPE at Newcastle to then go and change at York.

It’s not good enough for a city the size of Sunderland and it’s holding back economic development.

(This thread is about Sunderland railway station - not network planning generally).

I remember a few years back at work Network Rail coming in to get feedback off drivers etc. they are always on about congestion north of Northallerton. I said sort the coast out and run some round there to ease it and serving a big city as well. Lots of nodding heads and notes taken. Of course nowt happened. I had heard from a gaffer a few years ago XC had looked into going through Sunderland but talks didn’t go very far. In my opinion nothing will happen mostly due to cost and profit route learning etc. Unfortunately these days the railway isn’t about provided a public service which is a shame. We’re stuck with the metro and GC.

 

[royaldragon]

The issue is Newcastle is the main North East city. That drives people on here mad but it’s true.

Newcastle will continue to lead the way for the north east but a consequence is other large urban conurbations will suffer.

I don't think anyone is demanding Newcastle levels of rail connectivity, that level of service is not needed, but we should have a lot better service to other major cities ie Durham, Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool and Edinburgh (maybe 4-6 services a day). After all the so called rail experts were telling us for decades that there was virtually no demand for a Sunderland to London train service, GC showed them that they weren't such experts after all.

 

[PhilY]

None of them are on TPE mind, TPE is more a regional service anyway nowadays and always has been. It's never been intercity.

Personally for Sunderland I'd be pushing for something more like:

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With Metro extensions through to Seaham and Dalton Park both every 20 minutes combining to form the current green line. Then the South Hylton branch is replaced with an extended line onto the leamside line with 3 services each 30 minutes running Newcastle - Durham and beyond, Sunderland - Durham and beyond and Sunderland to Newcastle combining to give a 15 minute South Hylton to Sunderland, 15 minute Newcastle to Washington and 15 minute Houghton to Durham. The beyond being Darlington, maybe a TPE service which currently ends in York or whatever. It would pretty much connect everything up and most of Sunderland bar the North side would be 15 minute walk to a Metro or rail service.

Our LA's are too short sighted though and see the Metro as the be all for everything tho hence the utterly stupid ideas like a 10 minute Sunderland to Newcastle service via Washington. It also sorts the doubling back problem out.

Wigan is on TPE.

I have no idea why you’re being so objectionable. All I’ve suggested is that Sunderland should be supported in its economic development by including it in future rail franchises.

I’m not advocating lowering service standards anywhere else.

 

[diggers22]

Wigan is on TPE.

I have no idea why you’re being so objectionable. All I’ve suggested is that Sunderland should be supported in its economic development by including it in future rail franchises.

I’m not advocating lowering service standards anywhere else.

Sounds like he works for Newcastle Council

 

[PinzaC55]

I don't think anyone is demanding Newcastle levels of rail connectivity, that level of service is not needed, but we should have a lot better service to other major cities ie Durham, Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool and Edinburgh (maybe 4-6 services a day). After all the so called rail experts were telling us for decades that there was virtually no demand for a Sunderland to London train service, GC showed them that they weren't such experts after all.

It's largely a matter of capacity. Sunderland Station only has 2 physical platforms and until that is sorted out it will suffer. The line to Newcastle is saturated with slow moving and frequent Metro trains and likely will be for many years to come. The whole area is a victim of thoughtless short term "planning".

 

[PhilY]

It's largely a matter of capacity. Sunderland Station only has 2 physical platforms and until that is sorted out it will suffer. The line to Newcastle is saturated with slow moving and frequent Metro trains and likely will be for many years to come. The whole area is a victim of thoughtless short term "planning".

It’s deliberate, to channel passengers and therefore business to NE1.

 

[Zimba]

Wigan is on TPE.

I have no idea why you’re being so objectionable. All I’ve suggested is that Sunderland should be supported in its economic development by including it in future rail franchises.

I’m not advocating lowering service standards anywhere else.

I'm not I'm just being honest mate. There's no demand towards Sunderland so you'd just have empty trains carrying nothing.

Any of these paths should be put for the Durham Coast instead. Places like Seaham have unacceptable levels of service and are the sort of people who would actually travel to Sunderland and would actually benefit the city.

You have to remember Sunderland is only 170k when you take the areas outside of the A19 out who are 50/50 to Durham and aren't going to double back.

Didn't mean to come across as harsh. Wigan is a bit like Darlington and Carlisle that it happens to just be in the right place, just noticed it's on it now. It's one of the main lines to Glasgow from Manchester.

 

[royaldragon]

If I want to go to London, I don't care whether it's central to the city or not. If I can't get to the station then it's pointless. Very few people live in Sunderland City Centre and the connections to the station are appalling. If you're going to drive to a station, you might aswell just drive to Durham or Newcastle or better still just drive all the way and the people who live on the Metro can go to Newcastle anyway; no-one is going to get an TPE train to Sunderland to then double back on the Metro to Seaburn, when you can just Metro direct from Newcastle to Seaburn and save money aswell.

No-one from places like London have any reason to be in Sunderland centre either so if they can't get to their final destination ie. Doxford Park then again same applies.

I know some see Sunderland as some sort of haven where everyone wants to do loads of tourist stuff, visit the cinema, go to a wide range of shops and then eat in the wide range of international cuisine on offer but in reality it's the complete opposite and it's like going for a train trip to Luton to the rest of the country.

I disagree with most of what you say.

1. The city centre of Sunderland currently has around 3,000 people living in it, very soon it's going to be at least double to 6,000, but possible up to 10,000.

2. No-one from London need to be in a place like Sunderland? Maybe apart many companies like Hayes Travel which have their HO in the centre of Sunderland where staff frequently travel to, from all around the country, that's one of many Sunderland located businesses.

3. Within the next decade (about an extra 2,000 as early as next year when the L&G offices open) up to 10,000 office workers, based in the City Centre.

4. New start ups like the new Film studio's at Crown Works for major Film and TV attracting people from all over the world.

5. It's in the City Plan for continued investment in the Port of Sunderland, most of the off-shore supply ships that are increasing using Sunderland use it for crew changes, they need to get to Sunderland somehow, I wonder how they might achieve that?

6. This is just the beginning of the re-emergence of Sunderland.

As you can see future demand for better services to Sunderland should become a reality. It's no good planning

 

[Redandwhitedust]

No-one from places like London have any reason to be in Sunderland centre either so if they can't get to their final destination ie. Doxford Park then again same applies.

I went to Milton Keynes for work last week. Place I needed to be was well away from the station.
I was met off the train by the colleague I was going to see. Train was quicker than driving and easier. If he hadn't met me, I'd have got a taxi and claimed it as an expense. So it's no big deal.

Also the station at Sunderland is on the metro adding to connectivity

 

[PinzaC55]

I'm not I'm just being honest mate. There's no demand towards Sunderland so you'd just have empty trains carrying nothing.

Any of these paths should be put for the Durham Coast instead. Places like Seaham have unacceptable levels of service and are the sort of people who would actually travel to Sunderland and would actually benefit the city.

You have to remember Sunderland is only 170k when you take the areas outside of the A19 out who are 50/50 to Durham and aren't going to double back.

Didn't mean to come across as harsh. Wigan is a bit like Darlington and Carlisle that it happens to just be in the right place, just noticed it's on it now. It's one of the main lines to Glasgow from Manchester.

I'm not an expert by any means but you don't seem to know much about railway planning.
New railways and services create new traffic, usually in excess of feasibility studies. When the Borders Railway (former Waverley line from Edinburgh to Carlisle) was reopened between Edinburgh and Tweedbank the passenger figures were about 5 times the projections.
I was one of the people who though Grand Central would fail because I thought there'd be no demand for rail services from Sunderland to London but I was wrong. Grand Central created new traffic. As I said earlier reopening Sunderland - Durham is virtually impossible but if was done the trains would be chock a bloc because it would create new journey opportunities.