Sunderland railway station.

[PhilY]

Grand Central will continue running as it's a open access operator imo.

Other than that, and some will disagree, having all the mainline trains only serving Newcastle is the best way forward as it means you'll get better loads. Slow down mainline trains to serve everywhere then they're not competitive anymore.

What does ‘competitive mean in this sense?

What about stations proximity to users’ homes?

I fundamentally disagree that consolidating mainline stations in an area such as the North East leads to greater overall rail usership. It doesn’t - studies prove those who live more than 30 minutes travel from a mainline station have a significantly greater propensity to travel by private car instead.

Just look at the growth in national rail users from SR postcodes since Grand Central started in 2008 Vs the ten years prior to that.

Also - there are similar studies which establish the same sort of patterns when a rail journey requires one or more connection, as opposed to direct services.

 

[Zimba]

What does ‘competitive mean in this sense?

What about stations proximity to users’ homes?

I fundamentally disagree that consolidating mainline stations in an area such as the North East leads to greater overall rail usership. It doesn’t - studies prove those who live more than 30 minutes travel from a mainline station have a significantly greater propensity to travel by private car instead.

Just look at the growth in national rail users from SR postcodes since Grand Central started in 2008 Vs the ten years prior to that.

Also - there are similar studies which establish the same sort of patterns when a rail journey requires one or more connection, as opposed to direct services.

Better to do a hub and spoke model. Have a very good local/regional service ie. at least every 15 minutes connecting to the major hub to go the further distances.

The problem is the local services absolutely suck and we're more focused on the mainline stuff.

People don't want to do Edinburgh - Dunbar - Reston - Berwick - Alnmouth - Morpeth - Newcastle - Durham... and so on because it's too slow. People want services like Edinburgh - Newcastle - York - London.

Would it really be that bad if you had to sit on say a regional TPE train down to York, you get off and the LNER train is sitting in the platform opposite waiting to take you to London direct. It's all possible but that involves thinking and working with each other.

 

[Mackem00]

It was a condition of the franchise. LNER have been trying to scrap it for a while but the government won't let them. The one back direct is at 22:45.

Blown my mind this like. Never heard of it.

 

[PhilY]

Better to do a hub and spoke model. Have a very good local/regional service ie. at least every 15 minutes connecting to the major hub to go the further distances.

The problem is the local services absolutely suck and we're more focused on the mainline stuff.

People don't want to do Edinburgh - Dunbar - Reston - Berwick - Alnmouth - Morpeth - Newcastle - Durham... and so on because it's too slow. People want services like Edinburgh - Newcastle - York - London.

Would it really be that bad if you had to sit on say a regional TPE train down to York, you get off and the LNER train is sitting in the platform opposite waiting to take you to London direct. It's all possible but that involves thinking and working with each other.

I think you’re talking a bit off topic here my friend.

My point is that as a resident of Sunderland, I don’t have the option of catching a TPE service from Sunderland down to York.

Under the current arrangements, I’d have to travel north from Sunderland to get on TPE at Newcastle to then go and change at York.

It’s not good enough for a city the size of Sunderland and it’s holding back economic development.

(This thread is about Sunderland railway station - not network planning generally).

 

[Zimba]

I think you’re talking a bit off topic here my friend.

My point is that as a resident of Sunderland, I don’t have the option of catching a TPE service down to York.

Under the current arrangements, I’d have to travel north from Sunderland to get on TPE at Newcastle to then go and change at York.

It’s not good enough for a city the size of Sunderland and it’s holding back economic development.

(This thread is about Sunderland railway station - not network planning generally).

Aye I know and my post was about it would be better to develop the line South to benefit Sunderland push trains down to York.

Sunderland shouldn't be an intercity station as it's just in the wrong place and trains to Durham would be economically unsound and extending trains from Newcastle to Sunderland is just pointless as no-one lives in Sunderland city centre anyway so you'd have to get to Sunderland somehow anyway.

 

[PhilY]

Aye I know and my post was about it would be better to develop the line South to benefit Sunderland push trains down to York.

Sunderland shouldn't be an intercity station as it's just in the wrong place and trains to Durham would be economically unsound and extending trains from Newcastle to Sunderland is just pointless as no-one lives in Sunderland city centre anyway so you'd have to get to Sunderland somehow anyway.

Sorry? What? I live in Ashbrooke, 0.4 miles from Sunderland railway station.

What a ridiculous comment to make.

I agree the Durham Coast line should be upgraded.

Prior to GC beginning operations in 2008, there were plenty of people arguing that ‘there’s no point having a direct rail connection between Sunderland and London because not enough people want to travel between the two’ and GC has been a phenomenal success.

 

[Zimba]

Sorry? What? I live in Ashbrooke, 0.4 miles from Sunderland railway station.

What a ridiculous comment to make.

I agree the Durham Coast line should be upgraded.

Prior to GC beginning operations in 2008, there were plenty of people arguing that ‘there’s no point having a direct rail connection between Sunderland and London because not enough people want to travel between the two’ and GC has been a phenomenal success.

Aye but the vast majority of people would need to get a 15 - 20 minute bus to Sunderland to station. That's the bigger problem up here. The vast majority of Sunderland isn't in walking distance of the station. Sunderland badly needs a better local service to the South of the City what I don't know as it's £££.

Aye idm the open access operators. I'd love to see more of them personally. Lumo is a good one aswell and has really kept LNER in gear which can't be said about the shambles on the West Coast. Personally I'd say up Grand Central service to hourly even if it's only York to Sunderland for most of them. Would sort out the regional issue I was talking about tbh with throughfares available to Manchester, Leeds or whatever.

 

[PhilY]

Aye but the vast majority of people would need to get a 15 - 20 minute bus to Sunderland to station. That's the bigger problem up here. The vast majority of Sunderland isn't in walking distance of the station. Sunderland badly needs a better local service to the South of the City what I don't know as it's £££.

Aye idm the open access operators. I'd love to see more of them personally. Lumo is a good one aswell and has really kept LNER in gear which can't be said about the shambles on the West Coast. Personally I'd say up Grand Central service to hourly even if it's only York to Sunderland for most of them. Would sort out the regional issue I was talking about tbh with throughfares available to Manchester, Leeds or whatever.

And how do railway stations function in other cities and towns?

Your argument against expanding national connections for Sunderland (which is all I was originally proposing) does not stack up.

I’ve previously worked for GC (and actually did the deal to buy it in 2010) so I know something about it. The Sunderland - York element on the current infrastructure would not support an hourly service but it would work as part of an expanded TPE franchise.

 

[Redandwhitedust]

And how do railway stations function in other cities and towns?

Your argument against expanding national connections for Sunderland (which is all I was originally proposing) does not stack up.

I’ve previously worked for GC (and actually did the deal to buy it in 2010) so I know something about it. The Sunderland - York element on the current infrastructure would not support an hourly service but it would work as part of an expanded TPE franchise.

Sunderland used to be on the TPE franchise I think. Served via Newcastle.

I'm sure there will be a million reasons why this isn't possible, because I'm not a railway expert. But why not have the TPE franchise in the Northeast run in a loop.

So say,
Even hours. Liverpool to Newcastle via York, Eaglescliffe Hartlepool Sunderland, then back to Liverpool via Durham, Darlington and York

Odd hours. Liverpool to Sunderland via York, Darlington, Durham Newcastle, Hartlepool etc.

On alternative hours the service runs from Manchester Airport rather than Liverpool

Extra hourly destinations for Sunderland Hartlepool etc

Extra frequency Sunderland/Newcastle

 

[PhilY]

Sunderland used to be on the TPE franchise I think. Served via Newcastle.

I'm sure there will be a million reasons why this isn't possible, because I'm not a railway expert. But why not have the TPE franchise in the Northeast run in a loop.

So say,
Even hours. Liverpool to Newcastle via York, Eaglescliffe Hartlepool Sunderland, then back to Liverpool via Durham, Darlington and York

Odd hours. Liverpool to Sunderland via York, Darlington, Durham Newcastle, Hartlepool etc.

On alternative hours the service runs from Manchester Airport rather than Liverpool

Extra hourly destinations for Sunderland Hartlepool etc

Extra frequency Sunderland/Newcastle

It did. And it was also on the InterCity network prior to that. Nexus put paid to all of that.

The sort of connections you’ve suggested there would be excellent.

 

[Redandwhitedust]

The sort of connections you’ve suggested there would be excellent.

It'd be great. Sunderland would then get so many better options. Direct trains to Leeds Manchester Liverpool, plus frequent connections through one change York (going south) and Newcastle for going North.

there will no doubt be a practical reason it can't be done I'm sure

 

[PhilY]

It'd be great. Sunderland would then get so many better options. Direct trains to Leeds Manchester Liverpool, plus frequent connections through one change York (going south) and Newcastle for going North.

there will no doubt be a practical reason it can't be done I'm sure

Yeah - it might need the investment in the north end of the station and to open up the extra platforms but there’s absolutely no reason why Sunderland shouldn’t have that level of connectivity.

We need it for the future of the city.

 

[Zimba]

And how do railway stations function in other cities and towns?

Your argument against expanding national connections for Sunderland (which is all I was originally proposing) does not stack up.

I’ve previously worked for GC (and actually did the deal to buy it in 2010) so I know something about it. The Sunderland - York element on the current infrastructure would not support an hourly service but it would work as part of an expanded TPE franchise.

Exactly the same as Sunderland.

You have one regional hub ie. Leeds, with frequent services connecting to the other towns / cities; Bradford, Halifax, Guiseley etc. or Manchester connecting to Wigan, Burnley, Rochdale and so on.

Sunderland is out the way so it's a diversion for national connections so will affect other punters, extending trains from Newcastle is a complete waste of resources, unless you want the Metro cut in frequency to do so which doesn't benefit anyone and diverting trains from Durham on some new line to Sunderland would be counter productive as Newcastle is much much busier station with a much bigger catchment area.

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- Glasgow is a prime example of it working properly, the difference is they actually have a decent local rail network.

 

[Lord Nigle]

Exactly the same as Sunderland.

You have one regional hub ie. Leeds, with frequent services connecting to the other towns / cities; Bradford, Halifax, Guiseley etc. or Manchester connecting to Wigan, Burnley, Rochdale, Salford and so on.

Sunderland is out the way so it's a diversion for national connections so will affect other punters, extending trains from Newcastle is a complete waste of resources, unless you want the Metro cut in frequency to do so which doesn't benefit anyone and diverting trains from Durham on some new line to Sunderland would be counter productive as Newcastle is much much busier station with a much bigger catchment area.

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- Glasgow is a prime example of it working properly, the difference is they actually have a decent local rail network.

Or the metro could be extended from South Hylton to Durham along the old Line. This would provide good connectivity to the ECML

 

[Zimba]

Or the metro could be extended from South Hylton to Durham along the old Line. This would provide good connectivity to the ECML

If you got the funds wouldn't be the worst, canny expensive though. Mind I'd be tempted to say go down to Darlington aswell - it's a busier station. There's probably argument for a big hub station there anyway acting for Teesside aswell. Be easier to terminate aswell since there's bay platforms - whether you could get it to serve Durham aswell, I'm unsure - not sure what the state of bridge is across the Wear near Frankland is like. I'd probably do national rail though tbh, faster trains, nicer seating that longitunal which is less than ideal etc.

 

[Cappuccino Kid]

Theres all manner of reasons why there isn’t regular non-regional services.

It’s not on the main line, there’s a lack of railway sidings and train depot, and lack of capacity on the Newcastle-Sunderland line for trains to frequently have to divert from the depots at Heaton. Also it’s only 20 minutes away from Newcastle Central on a northern service.

Not only all of that, but there just isn’t the demand here to support a regular service.

 

[shadowplay]

Im sure there was carlisle and liverpool aswell, hopefully if platforms 3 and 4 are reopened, we will see more services using Sunderland but I very much doubt it that would happen

There's still a regular service to Carlisle

 

[PhilY]

Exactly the same as Sunderland.

You have one regional hub ie. Leeds, with frequent services connecting to the other towns / cities; Bradford, Halifax, Guiseley etc. or Manchester connecting to Wigan, Burnley, Rochdale and so on.

Sunderland is out the way so it's a diversion for national connections so will affect other punters, extending trains from Newcastle is a complete waste of resources, unless you want the Metro cut in frequency to do so which doesn't benefit anyone and diverting trains from Durham on some new line to Sunderland would be counter productive as Newcastle is much much busier station with a much bigger catchment area.

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- Glasgow is a prime example of it working properly, the difference is they actually have a decent local rail network.

Most of those other places you’ve mentioned are significantly smaller than Sunderland and yet several are on other national rail franchises, such as TPE!

There’s no significant constraint on the New-Sun rail line - it’s used at most by 6 trains per hour and it could easily operate at 10. The primary constraint is platform capacity at Sunderland because of the deliberate lack of investment by Nexus.

 

[Zimba]

Most of those other places you’ve mentioned are significantly smaller than Sunderland and yet several are on other national rail franchises, such as TPE!

There’s no significant constraint on the New-Sun rail line - it’s used at most by 6 trains per hour and it could easily operate at 10. The primary constraint is platform capacity at Sunderland because of the deliberate lack of investment by Nexus.

None of them are on TPE mind, TPE is more a regional service anyway nowadays and always has been. It's never been intercity.

Personally for Sunderland I'd be pushing for something more like:

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With Metro extensions through to Seaham and Dalton Park both every 20 minutes combining to form the current green line. Then the South Hylton branch is replaced with an extended line onto the leamside line with 3 services each 30 minutes running Newcastle - Durham and beyond, Sunderland - Durham and beyond and Sunderland to Newcastle combining to give a 15 minute South Hylton to Sunderland, 15 minute Newcastle to Washington and 15 minute Houghton to Durham. The beyond being Darlington, maybe a TPE service which currently ends in York or whatever. It would pretty much connect everything up and most of Sunderland bar the North side would be 15 minute walk to a Metro or rail service.

Our LA's are too short sighted though and see the Metro as the be all for everything tho hence the utterly stupid ideas like a 10 minute Sunderland to Newcastle service via Washington. It also sorts the doubling back problem out.

 

[Redandwhitedust]

Yeah - it might need the investment in the north end of the station and to open up the extra platforms but there’s absolutely no reason why Sunderland shouldn’t have that level of connectivity.

We need it for the future of the city.

Would the platforms really need any work?

In the "loop" idea trains wouldn't stop in Sunderland any longer than they do now. They'd just stop and move on once ready. No need to keep the train in the platform any longer than needed.

I suspect the problems would be more political than infrastructure. Can't imagine Northern/Metro being happy to take a frequency cut between Sunderland/Newcastle. Or Northern on the coast line.

But it would be a huge boost having that link to major cities and the airport at Manchester