Should late-term abortions for “foetal abnormalities” be banned?

[Deleted member 5265]

Are they fatal fetal abnormalities though? Downs isn’t a fatal abnormality, and the thread link was about how many abortions are for abnormalities that aren’t fatal. Does the 190 include abnormalities that the child would live with?

Haven’t a ducking clue. Just back from a night out sorry.

 

[Fred Basset]

As the dad of a little girl with downs I feel I can comment a little on this.

We didn't find out my daughter had downs till she was born and to be honest it didn't change a thing.

My first born was still born and that's probably affected my judgement on abortion as having lost one baby I couldn't face losing another.

Having a child with downs isn't a curse, yes it's hard work at times and we signed up to potentially a life time of caring for her, but we have also discovered a huge support network of parents willing to share advice and support.

This issue goes way beyond disability but whether you as an adult are comfortable with a termination so late in pregnancy when essentially the baby is fully formed.

Ive probably not worded that correctly as it's a highly emotive subject and difficult to express as words on a page rather than if it was a conversation in real life

Think this thread could learn a lot from you mate. Empathy, understanding and, most importantly, listening. Kindest of kind regards marra

 

[Sir Lancelot]

I have read this post 3 times now and also got my wife (no) to read it before replying and I'm still at a loss.

On the one hand you seem quite considerate to the issue and on the other quite dismissive, a little patronising and a little ignorant of the subject.

As I said in my original post, subject like this when discussed face to face would probably result in sensible conversations as a lot can be misinterpreted by words on a page

The subject is not black and white and most people will have reservations about whether or not to abort.

My daughter was born with a cleft lip. It wasn’t detected during the pregnancy but if it had been then I would have been offered the option of an abortion. I think that is horrendous but my view is influenced by the fact that I have a generally fit and healthy girl who leads a normal life and who has not been affected emotionally by having the cleft. But not every baby with a cleft has such a good result, as clefts can be a part of various syndromes which affect the life of the clefted person. If I knew that my unborn baby was going to most likely have life long difficulties then I might have been persuaded to abort.

The parents have to make a decision where most of the time they don’t have the full facts and therefore have to make their choice not knowing if their child will be badly affected or will be able to live a relatively normal life. Until we can guarantee a best case scenario for every parent then we must allow them the decision as to whether or not to continue the pregnancy. It’s their lives that will be affected the most by their choice.

 

[Ghandi Floss]

You have to balance that against the parents' wishes though, no? It is them ultimately who will have to raise the child. They should have the final say.

Aye, I suppose it’s impossible to say unless you’re in said position. And its not for me to say someone is wrong. Everyone’s views and capabilities are different.
I’m just uneasy about the whole process of abortion as it is. I struggle to get my head round it.

 

[Mackem00]

In the old days a Downs Syndrome baby would generally not be expected to live beyond their childhood because of heart abnormalities and other issues. Now most Downs Syndrome babies will have a pretty normal life span.

Although I am not generally in favour of abortion, I believe it is wrong to assign parents a lifetime burden of a child with disabilities - not just Downs but all severe disabilities.

If the government were to fund housing improvements for disabled children, give their parents financial assistance for those who can’t work because of caring responsibilities, and offer regular respite care then I might be persuaded to change my opinion. As things stand I think that parents of disabled children should be offered every kind of assistance required, up to and including abortion if they request it.

It is not the average bloke in the streets responsibility to care for these children and it is therefore not their choice whether or not abortion is considered. The only people whose opinion matters is that of the parents making an horrendous choice on whether they should tie themselves for the rest of their lives to a disabled adult who may outweigh them and be more powerful than them, or whether they take the decision to walk away.

Downs children don’t remain sweet and cute children. They can grow up into incontinent adults requiring 24 hour supervision. We should never force someone to keep that child if their preference is to abort.

Excellent post imo. A very difficult situation for anyone to find themselves in.

 

[chriswallace85]

No.


That's the top and bottom of it.

 

[chunksafc]

The subject is not black and white and most people will have reservations about whether or not to abort.

My daughter was born with a cleft lip. It wasn’t detected during the pregnancy but if it had been then I would have been offered the option of an abortion. I think that is horrendous but my view is influenced by the fact that I have a generally fit and healthy girl who leads a normal life and who has not been affected emotionally by having the cleft. But not every baby with a cleft has such a good result, as clefts can be a part of various syndromes which affect the life of the clefted person. If I knew that my unborn baby was going to most likely have life long difficulties then I might have been persuaded to abort.

The parents have to make a decision where most of the time they don’t have the full facts and therefore have to make their choice not knowing if their child will be badly affected or will be able to live a relatively normal life. Until we can guarantee a best case scenario for every parent then we must allow them the decision as to whether or not to continue the pregnancy. It’s their lives that will be affected the most by their choice.

I dont believe we will ever be able to provide a "best case" scenario, who is best to judge what that is? Or offer advice as to what may or may not happen?

According to all the health are professionals I spoke to after my daughter was born, she would be lazy, would have trouble eating, we would have to wake her as a baby to feed her, would suffer health problems.

Thankfully, she hasn't had any of these and I wish I had 25% of her energy, when my fm daughter was born she had a small hole I the heart and a heart murmur, we were advised these might not clear up and she would need lots of operations and care. Thankfully she didn't and we are one of the lucky few, but who am I to make the decision to end a life and not give her a chance

 

[Sir Lancelot]

I dont believe we will ever be able to provide a "best case" scenario, who is best to judge what that is? Or offer advice as to what may or may not happen?

According to all the health are professionals I spoke to after my daughter was born, she would be lazy, would have trouble eating, we would have to wake her as a baby to feed her, would suffer health problems.

Thankfully, she hasn't had any of these and I wish I had 25% of her energy, when my fm daughter was born she had a small hole I the heart and a heart murmur, we were advised these might not clear up and she would need lots of operations and care. Thankfully she didn't and we are one of the lucky few, but who am I to make the decision to end a life and not give her a chance

That’s my point really. You had the choice, you could keep the baby or abort it. No one is saying that it’s an easy choice or that you have the full information, you just have to decide on what you think and what you feel and how prepared you are to take on a disabled child.

When you watch programmes such as DIY SOS you can see how drained those parents are from caring for their child. In some cases marriages have broken down and one parent is left to care alone, in others the parents health has deteriorated and they are constantly struggling.

In my opinion the sort of professional assistance in home adaptations and general support should be offered to every parent with a disabled child. None of them should be left to struggle on alone trying to work on their homes and care for their child. We need to recognise that care is a full time occupation and see that parents receive funding accordingly. It is still far cheaper than providing institutional care when the parents are no longer able to cope. But until we do so then we need to recognise the parents right to opt out of having a disabled child whether that comes before or after birth.

 

[chunksafc]

That’s my point really. You had the choice, you could keep the baby or abort it. No one is saying that it’s an easy choice or that you have the full information, you just have to decide on what you think and what you feel and how prepared you are to take on a disabled child.

When you watch programmes such as DIY SOS you can see how drained those parents are from caring for their child. In some cases marriages have broken down and one parent is left to care alone, in others the parents health has deteriorated and they are constantly struggling.

In my opinion the sort of professional assistance in home adaptations and general support should be offered to every parent with a disabled child. None of them should be left to struggle on alone trying to work on their homes and care for their child. We need to recognise that care is a full time occupation and see that parents receive funding accordingly. It is still far cheaper than providing institutional care when the parents are no longer able to cope. But until we do so then we need to recognise the parents right to opt out of having a disabled child whether that comes before or after birth.

Sorry but I just can't agree, at 38 weeks a baby no matter how disabled has fingers, toes, feelings etc.

Your earlier post about how the "normal" man in the street should not have to pay for disabled kids, then your post about "until a best case solution" is found appear to me to be from someone who wants to agree with this rule but doesn't want to say it as they feel it isn't morally right.

As I have said, this is almost an impossible subject to discuss when it is words on a page.

I would point out that you dont have to be on DIY SOS be absolutely drained from caring for a disabled child, that in itself sounds condecending but I'm sure isn't meant in that way

 

[Sir Lancelot]

Sorry but I just can't agree, at 38 weeks a baby no matter how disabled has fingers, toes, feelings etc.

Your earlier post about how the "normal" man in the street should not have to pay for disabled kids, then your post about "until a best case solution" is found appear to me to be from someone who wants to agree with this rule but doesn't want to say it as they feel it isn't morally right.

As I have said, this is almost an impossible subject to discuss when it is words on a page.

I would point out that you dont have to be on DIY SOS be absolutely drained from caring for a disabled child, that in itself sounds condecending but I'm sure isn't meant in that way

Could you point out where I said the man in the street shouldn't pay for disabled kids? I think that you have completely misunderstood my posts and you are trying to take the hump with me as a result.

I do agree that parents should have the right to an abortion right up until full term as it is their choice about whether or not to have a disabled child. I don’t think it is morally wrong to believe that though, clearly some will. Thats not my problem, it is for the individual to square with their own conscience. I don’t believe, for a second, that society has the right to force anyone to have a child, disabled or not. In the case of social reasons it should be done as early as possible, in the case of disabled children it should be when the parent has had the chance to learn about their child’s disability and decide for themselves if it is asking too much from them to care for that child.

 

[chunksafc]

Could you point out where I said the man in the street shouldn't pay for disabled kids? I think that you have completely misunderstood my posts and you are trying to take the hump with me as a result.

I do agree that parents should have the right to an abortion right up until full term as it is their choice about whether or not to have a disabled child. I don’t think it is morally wrong to believe that though, clearly some will. Thats not my problem, it is for the individual to square with their own conscience. I don’t believe, for a second, that society has the right to force anyone to have a child, disabled or not. In the case of social reasons it should be done as early as possible, in the case of disabled children it should be when the parent has had the chance to learn about their child’s disability and decide for themselves if it is asking too much from them to care for that child.

You said it in your very first post
"It is not the average bloke in the streets responsibility to care for these children"

As I have stated 3 times I'm not trying to take the hump, I just think you could be being misconstrued as on one hand you seem to agree then you follow it up with what could be taken as ignorance.

As your last comment states "in the case of disabled children it should be when the parent has had the chance to learn about their child’s disability and decide for themselves if it is asking too much from them to care for that child"

I've learnt in the case of my disabled child that it's bloody hard work, that it breaks my heart when people stare and judge with out knowing the truth.

All I have pointed out is at worst your posts appear ill judged and at best easily misconstrued

 

[Sir Lancelot]

You said it in your very first post
"It is not the average bloke in the streets responsibility to care for these children"

As I have stated 3 times I'm not trying to take the hump, I just think you could be being misconstrued as on one hand you seem to agree then you follow it up with what could be taken as ignorance.

As your last comment states "in the case of disabled children it should be when the parent has had the chance to learn about their child’s disability and decide for themselves if it is asking too much from them to care for that child"

I've learnt in the case of my disabled child that it's bloody hard work, that it breaks my heart when people stare and judge with out knowing the truth.

All I have pointed out is at worst your posts appear ill judged and at best easily misconstrued

As I stated in my previous post you have taken a fragment from a sentence, totally ignored the rest of the sentence or the context and made up your own interpretation of what I’ve said. I strongly suggest that you go back and read the entire post.

I have a disabled child. She was born with a cleft lip. At twelve she was diagnosed with Crohn’s disease and now has a stoma. I know exactly what being a parent of a disabled child means. The constant medical appointments, repeated surgeries, blood tests, tube feedings and various therapies. The unending worry about her, the need to help her deal with little gits at school calling her scar face, reassuring her and generally just being there for her.

I have been there, I have the T-shirt and I stand by my belief that the parent should have the right to decide if such a life is for them. If they chose an abortion, it is their choice, not anyone else’s. There is no moral high ground here, so you don’t occupy it.

 

[chunksafc]

As I stated in my previous post you have taken a fragment from a sentence, totally ignored the rest of the sentence or the context and made up your own interpretation of what I’ve said. I strongly suggest that you go back and read the entire post.

I have a disabled child. She was born with a cleft lip. At twelve she was diagnosed with Crohn’s disease and now has a stoma. I know exactly what being a parent of a disabled child means. The constant medical appointments, repeated surgeries, blood tests, tube feedings and various therapies. The unending worry about her, the need to help her deal with little gits at school calling her scar face, reassuring her and generally just being there for her.

I have been there, I have the T-shirt and I stand by my belief that the parent should have the right to decide if such a life is for them. If they chose an abortion, it is their choice, not anyone else’s. There is no moral high ground here, so you don’t occupy it.

And you keep on going. I have read, re read and shown others your posts.

I have at no point attempted to occupy any moral high ground, as I have stated numerous times your posts verge between condecending and ignorant.

You seem unable to accept that other parents of disabled children have a different view or that as I have pointed out several times that typed words do not convey the thought process behind them.

Have I taken your words out of context? Possibly and for that I apologise, but at least give a little admit that some may have found your posts insensitive to say the least

 

[MonkeyLove]

That’s my point really. You had the choice, you could keep the baby or abort it. No one is saying that it’s an easy choice or that you have the full information, you just have to decide on what you think and what you feel and how prepared you are to take on a disabled child.

When you watch programmes such as DIY SOS you can see how drained those parents are from caring for their child. In some cases marriages have broken down and one parent is left to care alone, in others the parents health has deteriorated and they are constantly struggling.

In my opinion the sort of professional assistance in home adaptations and general support should be offered to every parent with a disabled child. None of them should be left to struggle on alone trying to work on their homes and care for their child. We need to recognise that care is a full time occupation and see that parents receive funding accordingly. It is still far cheaper than providing institutional care when the parents are no longer able to cope. But until we do so then we need to recognise the parents right to opt out of having a disabled child whether that comes before or after birth.

The whole opt out arguement I find bizarre.

In every aspect of our lives we make choices and live with the risks and consequences. I dont see the choice to conceive any different and that therefore there is any more of an argument to allow late term abortions for anything but fatal abnormalities.

But as a general principle I think that whilst abortion is classed as a healthcare issue, it will be something that in 200 years is looked back on in a very different and enlightened way.

 

[Sir Lancelot]

And you keep on going. I have read, re read and shown others your posts.

I have at no point attempted to occupy any moral high ground, as I have stated numerous times your posts verge between condecending and ignorant.

You seem unable to accept that other parents of disabled children have a different view or that as I have pointed out several times that typed words do not convey the thought process behind them.

Have I taken your words out of context? Possibly and for that I apologise, but at least give a little admit that some may have found your posts insensitive to say the least

What part of ‘it is the parents choice‘ do you have difficulty with?

 

[chriswallace85]

And you keep on going. I have read, re read and shown others your posts.

I have at no point attempted to occupy any moral high ground, as I have stated numerous times your posts verge between condecending and ignorant.

You seem unable to accept that other parents of disabled children have a different view or that as I have pointed out several times that typed words do not convey the thought process behind them.

Have I taken your words out of context? Possibly and for that I apologise, but at least give a little admit that some may have found your posts insensitive to say the least

He's advocating choice marra. No more, no less.

You said it in your very first post
"It is not the average bloke in the streets responsibility to care for these children"

As I have stated 3 times I'm not trying to take the hump, I just think you could be being misconstrued as on one hand you seem to agree then you follow it up with what could be taken as ignorance.

As your last comment states "in the case of disabled children it should be when the parent has had the chance to learn about their child’s disability and decide for themselves if it is asking too much from them to care for that child"

I've learnt in the case of my disabled child that it's bloody hard work, that it breaks my heart when people stare and judge with out knowing the truth.

All I have pointed out is at worst your posts appear ill judged and at best easily misconstrued

But you're then one misconstruing them. And I don't think they're ill judged at all. You might not like them or agree with them but it's not his fault. He's come at them from an informed angle.

 

[pillars of hercules]

No limit as far as I know.

I was offered one at 34 weeks. I had several indicators for Downs including shadows on my daughters head on an ultrasound. They tried to do a brain scan but her head was pressing into my pelvis and they couldn't get a clear scan as my bones were getting in the way. They couldn't say either way if she had Downs or not. If I'd gone ahead with a late abortion, they would have euthanised her and I'd have to go through labour and give birth to a dead baby. By that time, I'd bonded with her through kicking, she knew my voice, had favourite music and I'd seen her face and knew she was the spitting image of me (as they couldn't scan her brain, they gave me a freebie 4D scan). There's absolutely no way I could have gone through with ending it. Spent the last few weeks preparing in case she was Downs but she was checked over when born and she seemed fine. They did a brain scan when she was two weeks old and nothing was found. She did have a full head of thick hair though, so they think that's what the shadows were!

At the 12 week scan of our youngest we were told the baby had a chromosomal abnormality and Downs was the best case scenario. They said the likelihood was the baby would be stillborn or die shortly after birth. We took the difficult decision of booking a termination.

The day before it was due to happen the consultant phoned my wife and said that because the pregnancy was PLANNED she wanted my wife to go to James Cook to have an amniocentesis to double check. They scanned her first then the staff went quiet. They left and came back with a doctor looked at the scan, talked for ages then went away for ages. They got a specialist to come down from Newcastle and he took ages looking at the scan and said they couldn't find anything wrong with the baby and they hat made a mistake on the first scan.

 

[chriswallace85]

At the 12 week scan of our youngest we were told the baby had a chromosomal abnormality and Downs was the best case scenario. They said the likelihood was the baby would be stillborn or die shortly after birth. We took the difficult decision of booking a termination.

The day before it was due to happen the consultant phoned my wife and said that because the pregnancy was PLANNED she wanted my wife to go to James Cook to have an amniocentesis to double check. They scanned her first then the staff went quiet. They left and came back with a doctor looked at the scan, talked for ages then went away for ages. They got a specialist to come down from Newcastle and he took ages looking at the scan and said they couldn't find anything wrong with the baby and they hat made a mistake on the first scan.

This and @becs's earlier post are pretty scary like.

 

[Mackem00]

At the 12 week scan of our youngest we were told the baby had a chromosomal abnormality and Downs was the best case scenario. They said the likelihood was the baby would be stillborn or die shortly after birth. We took the difficult decision of booking a termination.

The day before it was due to happen the consultant phoned my wife and said that because the pregnancy was PLANNED she wanted my wife to go to James Cook to have an amniocentesis to double check. They scanned her first then the staff went quiet. They left and came back with a doctor looked at the scan, talked for ages then went away for ages. They got a specialist to come down from Newcastle and he took ages looking at the scan and said they couldn't find anything wrong with the baby and they hat made a mistake on the first scan.

That is absolutely mind blowing mate.

 

[MackneyHackem]

At the 12 week scan of our youngest we were told the baby had a chromosomal abnormality and Downs was the best case scenario. They said the likelihood was the baby would be stillborn or die shortly after birth. We took the difficult decision of booking a termination.

The day before it was due to happen the consultant phoned my wife and said that because the pregnancy was PLANNED she wanted my wife to go to James Cook to have an amniocentesis to double check. They scanned her first then the staff went quiet. They left and came back with a doctor looked at the scan, talked for ages then went away for ages. They got a specialist to come down from Newcastle and he took ages looking at the scan and said they couldn't find anything wrong with the baby and they hat made a mistake on the first scan.

Fuck me.