*~*~* Rotherham v Sunderland match thread *~*~*

[Chewit]

Why do people spout this nonsense about the league one play offs. We went into them as the form team in the division on a long winless run. We didn't creep in, we were in because we deserved it .

Just confirm at which point we confirmed our position in play the offs please. Agree we were form team, but we were not cemented in the play offs all season, nor were we last season.

 

[Rocky77]

Just confirm at which point we confirmed our position in play the offs please. Agree we were form team, but we were not cemented in the play offs all season, nor were we last season.

We didn't creep in, we were in with a game to go iirc, we absolutely flew into them and deserved our place in them. I've also seen it described as a flukey promotion
What with the need to put things down? We got exactly what we deserved that season

 

[Mackem Attack]

Seems odd if there’s no input from him.

I’m not expecting wholesale changes or miracles at all. If you are going to carry the can for the performances would you be happy to take a back seat?

Dodds changed out system completely v leeds with very little time to work with the players after the West Brom game.

When do you propose he trains with the players exactly? Christmas Day? It's all just game, recovery, game, recovery at this stage.

The failing here is on Speakman not getting the manager in on time to allow him that training time early in December when we had reasonable gaps to work on the training ground with them

 

[threepenny bits]

When do you propose he trains with the players exactly? Christmas Day? It's all just game, recovery, game, recovery at this stage.

The failing here is on Speakman not getting the manager in on time to allow him that training time early in December when we had reasonable gaps to work on the training ground with them

We’ve changed the way we play by playing 2 number 10’s.

It hasn’t worked so change it again.

We changed the system completely between the West Brom and Leeds game.

 

[homeless kid]

Durban left and that was when the recruitment fell apart under Reid iirc. Stand to be corrected.
He left also because something wasn’t right and can’t recall what it was.

Reading Bob Murray’s book, he fumes about the 2002 onwards period when Reid spunked a lot of money on crap

I love Reid, but his stubborn streak (Johnston, Hutchison, Summerbee etc) cost us dearly.

Player and Coach. There's only so many youngsters you can sign without having experience. In terms of player quality he's done well overall apart from a few duds

Agree

It’s madness really because they’re so fixated on developing these youngsters by filling the team exclusively with them

Surely having 3 players with experience and know how alongside them would accelerate the kids’ learning curve massively

 

[Hetty]

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[Turnip from the Tip]

Completely agree.

Our modus operandi and intent is to sign young players relatively cheaply, develop them by exposing them to first team football with a view to ultimately turning profit (rinse and repeat).

The obvious danger in this is with young players comes inconsistency and needs to be supplemented by a core of experienced players many of whom have been discarded, jettisoned or deemed surplus to requirements by the regime.

Whilst frustrating the club will clearly not deviate from it's approach as was evidenced by the nature of Mowbray's departure. He stopped toeing the party line and went against the model - no way back after that!

It is widely considered that we over achieved last season and, given the summer recruitment, our relatively low wage bill and the fact that the division is significantly stronger than last, it was always unlikely that we were going to match or better our sixth place finish.

There is a strong argument to say the model is working.

16th highest wage budget. Probably the most healthy wages to turnover at 65% and hovering around the edge of the play off places.

If we did this over the next couple of years, 10th highest budget could equal a second or third place finish while being financially very strong.

Last night was frustrating but there is a bigger picture and the overall health of the club appears to be very strong and this is still a very likeable team.

 

[BumbleBee]

White dog shit seemed plentiful in the 70’s .. what led too it’s demise ?

Nobody gives their dogs bones from the butchers.

 

[Chewit]

Player and Coach. There's only so many youngsters you can sign without having experience. In terms of player quality he's done well overall apart from a few duds

Common sense

We didn't creep in, we were in with a game to go iirc, we absolutely flew into them and deserved our place in them. I've also seen it described as a flukey promotion
What with the need to put things down? We got exactly what we deserved that season

Nothing flukey about it but you are admitting we got into the play offs with a game to spare.
Call it what you want but we were not at the races all season and got over the line by a head in the end with a storming finish … is that better ?

There is a strong argument to say the model is working.

16th highest wage budget. Probably the most healthy wages to turnover at 65% and hovering around the edge of the play off places.

If we did this over the next couple of years, 10th highest budget could equal a second or third place finish while being financially very strong.

Last night was frustrating but there is a bigger picture and the overall health of the club appears to be very strong and this is still a very likeable team.

There is also a strong argument it could work even better with a bit of ambition and investment.
How long before our best players decide the clubs ambition does not match theirs and want off?
When that happens if the best we can do is what has come through in the last two transfer windows we are going to go backwards.
You cant stand still in football no matter how good you think you are.
Best example of that is how we tail spinned out of the Premiership under Murray/Reid or Leicester after winning the Premiership

 

[Safc98]

No because we didn't invest in a striker in January

We were 16pts off the top two by the end of January 2023. It was never going to happen. Play offs is always a lottery whoever you’ve got, the issue was the lack of height and CBs rather than stirkers against Luton.

They're right though you can't go ad hominem while insulting someone else's debate skills, you've scuttled your own credibility.

Let’s just establish one thing. I didn’t say what they said I said. End of discussion

 

[Mackem Attack]

We’ve changed the way we play by playing 2 number 10’s.

It hasn’t worked so change it again.

We changed the system completely between the West Brom and Leeds game.

The WBA and Leeds changed were worked on by coaches who had been here for a long time and was probably pre-prepared. Sure, Beales made a few small tweaks but he doesn't have the option atm to change something massive in the squad - to do so would be suicidal and we'd certainly lose doing so. I can't stand the thought of Beale as much as anyone, but we've got him now and we've got to be fair in our criticism at the very least.

 

[Football Dinosaur]

All I heard in here last season was that we needed to get promoted right away because the Championship would be much stronger this year with the quality of the PL sides being relegated. Now we are maintaining our level of performance in that stronger division and it is interpreted as us getting weaker.

We are outside the playoffs at Christmas. For a club our size that's a disaster

On the recruitment side recently we keep signing mostly low cost young foreign players but to date we have only really had success with the more expensive domestic players we have brought in from Premier League clubs.

Ballard
Cirkin
Huggins
Alese
Roberts
Clarke
Ekwah

The foreign recruitment in the last 12-18 months has not been good enough. I believe this is all because the club are now focusing more on future returns. The players listed above nearly all come with hefty sell on clauses. This has forced us overseas for cheaper options with greater potential return.

There is something not quite right at the minute and If we sell 2-3 of the players listed above we will be really screwed.

If they focused on improving the team and fixing the obvious problems we've had for years then the value of the squad would increase. Gain promotion and it goes through the roof.

 

[threepenny bits]

The WBA and Leeds changed were worked on by coaches who had been here for a long time and was probably pre-prepared. Sure, Beales made a few small tweaks but he doesn't have the option atm to change something massive in the squad - to do so would be suicidal and we'd certainly lose doing so. I can't stand the thought of Beale as much as anyone, but we've got him now and we've got to be fair in our criticism at the very least.

We have the same coaches here now, so why can’t we change it, why do we manage to change things as the game goes on using subs?

Of course it can be charged without the need of loads of training sessions, do you think we were working on a system change for Leeds weeks or months beforehand?

We are talking about professionals here.

 

[ontap]

I watched Ekwah specifically for 10 minutes when the second half started and my god he needs dropping. he pussies out of 50/50s, any pass over 4 ft and anything that isn't sideways or backwards. He is weak as piss at the moment and shouldn't be playing. Christ try anything, Rigg, 09, Jobe even (nearly cost us aswel, suprised he didnt go off or get sent off ). One minute DN is moving forward then Ekwah is ffs. But that middle of the park is area is costing us as much as the striker problem is.

Harsh on Kobe , he made one short pass to Luke that nearly cost us, but he ran himself into the ground . Occupied at least two opposing players most of the game. Have a go at Ekwah’s laziness yes , but not Jobe , he is one of the bright lights so far.

 

[Rocky77]

Common sense


Nothing flukey about it but you are admitting we got into the play offs with a game to spare.
Call it what you want but we were not at the races all season and got over the line by a head in the end with a storming finish … is that better ?


There is also a strong argument it could work even better with a bit of ambition and investment.
How long before our best players decide the clubs ambition does not match theirs and want off?
When that happens if the best we can do is what has come through in the last two transfer windows we are going to go backwards.
You cant stand still in football no matter how good you think you are.
Best example of that is how we tail spinned out of the Premiership under Murray/Reid or Leicester after winning the Premiership

Admitting we were comfortably in the play offs

 

[ontap]

We are outside the playoffs at Christmas. For a club our size that's a disaster

If they focused on improving the team and fixing the obvious problems we've had for years then the value of the squad would increase. Gain promotion and it goes through the roof.

O don’t think it’s a disaster at all . It’s probably right on schedule with the long term sustainable planning. Might even be ahead of where the owners expected us to be this soon. Next round of young sign kings need to be better than the last window that’s all .

 

[Football Dinosaur]

O don’t think it’s a disaster at all . It’s probably right on schedule with the long term sustainable planning. Might even be ahead of where the owners expected us to be this soon. Next round of young sign kings need to be better than the last window that’s all .

You can't pick and chose when you want to go up. I alai think many will look at how we're operating and chose not to renew. Plenty rumblings already this season.

 

[ontap]

There is a strong argument to say the model is working.

16th highest wage budget. Probably the most healthy wages to turnover at 65% and hovering around the edge of the play off places.

If we did this over the next couple of years, 10th highest budget could equal a second or third place finish while being financially very strong.

Last night was frustrating but there is a bigger picture and the overall health of the club appears to be very strong and this is still a very likeable team.

My god , a positive red and white striped post amongst all the negative depressing shite that was posted during and after last nights draw. If you had offered any sane Sunderland fan 4 pts from two away games , hell an Rotherham before a ball was kicked they would to a man or woman snapped your hands off. Have a like Turnip , you’ve restored my faith

Common sense


Nothing flukey about it but you are admitting we got into the play offs with a game to spare.
Call it what you want but we were not at the races all season and got over the line by a head in the end with a storming finish … is that better ?


There is also a strong argument it could work even better with a bit of ambition and investment.
How long before our best players decide the clubs ambition does not match theirs and want off?
When that happens if the best we can do is what has come through in the last two transfer windows we are going to go backwards.
You cant stand still in football no matter how good you think you are.
Best example of that is how we tail spinned out of the Premiership under Murray/Reid or Leicester after winning the Premiership

This next window will determine whether or not we are standing still. The strikers we signed haven’t as yet worked out , that’s always a risk given the model . The next lot need to be better faster.

 

[Turnip from the Tip]

Common sense


Nothing flukey about it but you are admitting we got into the play offs with a game to spare.
Call it what you want but we were not at the races all season and got over the line by a head in the end with a storming finish … is that better ?


There is also a strong argument it could work even better with a bit of ambition and investment.
How long before our best players decide the clubs ambition does not match theirs and want off?
When that happens if the best we can do is what has come through in the last two transfer windows we are going to go backwards.
You cant stand still in football no matter how good you think you are.
Best example of that is how we tail spinned out of the Premiership under Murray/Reid or Leicester after winning the Premiership

You’re missing the point though.

SAFC’s sales pitch to potential signings isn’t that we are going to become a major force and hang on to them, it’s that we will develop them, give them first team football and an opportunity to progress their careers (if they take that opportunity) elsewhere. 2 seasons with us, tops.

Jack Clarke will be the first shining example of this when he moves on. The players understand this 100%. It’s why they sign.

The key to the success of this is selling at the right time (for the player and the club) and making sure that we find another Clarke every couple of years.

 

[Mackem Attack]

We have the same coaches here now, so why can’t we change it, why do we manage to change things as the game goes on using subs?

Of course it can be charged without the need of loads of training sessions, do you think we were working on a system change for Leeds weeks or months beforehand?

We are talking about professionals here.

Oh right so you think it’s as easy as just deciding to play a whole new line, formation, block, whole new play patterns and everything and they should just deal with it on the pitch with approximately 10 minutes training time beforehand? Get real - Beale hasn’t had a chance to graft his ideas into the lads, so he’s clearly limited to minor adjustments to mowbrays play patterns at this stage. To suggest otherwise shows your naivety