Put a flat earthier into space

[taipeisafc]

Well space travel is a little different to the flat earth debate.

Do you believe Yuri Gagarin was the first man in space, There is a second theory that he wasn't and it was Major General Vladimir Sergeyevich Ilyushin 2 days earlier and that the USA was quite happy to help cover up the fact the USSR was lying. The reason for this was a bad landing that nearly killed him, I think IIRC he ended up in china as the modular failed and went off course.

With regards the moon landings I have some mixed views based on "lost tech theory" the so called Nasa lost the ability to go back and the fact we have the Van Allen radiation belt, I feel some astronauts did land on the moon but maybe not the ones paraded about back on earth, its not much to conceive that the original astronauts died from radiation poisoning and were replaced for the cameras, could explain a lot of the conspiracy theories with regards the first landings and some of the film footage that's brought up with regards Armstrong and co in the questions afterwards. Either way there is some compelling stuff to make you think twice at times.

At the time studies were still ongoing in the Marshall Islands with regards human effects of Radiation ( another cover up ), so maybe a miscalculation of the Van Allen belt caused sickness /death in the first crew and the USA did a mini cover up, after all beating the USSR was the most important thing?

Its interesting thoughts and could explain why we didn't go back after the Apollo program, if it was deemed to dangerous and why we stay in low obit, I think this is much more likely than not going at all or aliens stopping us from going back.

Fun subject though and interesting stuff.

I hadn't heard about the Ilyushin thing before but a quick google and wikipedia suggest it is somewhat unfounded :-

Alleged first person in space[

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]​

Two days before Gagarin's launch on 12 April 1961, Dennis Ogden wrote in the Western Communist newspaper the

You must be logged on to see external links

that the Soviet Union's announcement that Ilyushin had been involved in a serious

You must be logged on to see external links

was really a cover story for a 7 April 1961 spaceflight gone wrong. A similar story was told by French broadcaster Eduard Bobrovsky, but his version had the launch occurring in March, resulting in Ilyushin slipping into a . tracking stations, however, had no record of any such launch. Later that year, transmitted the rumor by claiming that Gagarin had never flown, and was merely a stand-in for the sickened Ilyushin. The 1999 film The Cosmonaut Cover-Up takes the position that Ilyushin was the first man in space and discusses the alleged cover-up in detail. They claim, "According to recently declassified documents, Ilyushin was placed in a capsule named Rossiya, and the secret flight took place in the early hours of the morning, on Friday April 7th 1961". After a guidance malfunction, the cosmonaut is reported to have made an unguided crash landing in China, too critically injured to announce the mission a complete success. The 2009 film Fallen Idol: The Yuri Gagarin Conspiracy also takes the same position and further discusses US efforts to continue the allegation, even citing national security not to release information under the . The data sought was from the tracking station at that supposedly covered and recorded Iluyshin's failed mission.

According to Mark Wade, editor of the space history web site , "The entire early history of the Soviet manned space program has been declassified and we have piles of memoirs of cosmonauts, engineers, etc., who participated. We know who was in the original cosmonaut team, who never flew, was dismissed, or was killed in ground tests. Ilyushin is not one of them."

As regards the moon landings, none of the evidence to refute the moon landings occurring stands up to me - particularly as they have now got surface photos of the stuff left on the moon through more recent missions. I think they have never bothered going back to the moon as there isn't anything an astronaut can do that an automated lander can and as we have already been there isn't any kudos or political capital in going there - I suspect China may try to land people there pretty soon to validate their space program and as a show of their "prowess".

Also remember that the bloke I was replying to doesn't believe in space at all and every single space mission is a fake.......

 

[ned_werby]

Well space travel is a little different to the flat earth debate.

Do you believe Yuri Gagarin was the first man in space, There is a second theory that he wasn't and it was Major General Vladimir Sergeyevich Ilyushin 2 days earlier and that the USA was quite happy to help cover up the fact the USSR was lying. The reason for this was a bad landing that nearly killed him, I think IIRC he ended up in china as the modular failed and went off course.

With regards the moon landings I have some mixed views based on "lost tech theory" the so called Nasa lost the ability to go back and the fact we have the Van Allen radiation belt, I feel some astronauts did land on the moon but maybe not the ones paraded about back on earth, its not much to conceive that the original astronauts died from radiation poisoning and were replaced for the cameras, could explain a lot of the conspiracy theories with regards the first landings and some of the film footage that's brought up with regards Armstrong and co in the questions afterwards. Either way there is some compelling stuff to make you think twice at times.

At the time studies were still ongoing in the Marshall Islands with regards human effects of Radiation ( another cover up ), so maybe a miscalculation of the Van Allen belt caused sickness /death in the first crew and the USA did a mini cover up, after all beating the USSR was the most important thing?

Its interesting thoughts and could explain why we didn't go back after the Apollo program, if it was deemed to dangerous and why we stay in low obit, I think this is much more likely than not going at all or aliens stopping us from going back.

Fun subject though and interesting stuff.

oh christ, he's passed the baton on....................

 

[payne]

I hadn't heard about the Ilyushin thing before but a quick google and wikipedia suggest it is somewhat unfounded :-

Alleged first person in space[

You must be logged on to see external links

]​

Two days before Gagarin's launch on 12 April 1961, Dennis Ogden wrote in the Western Communist newspaper the

You must be logged on to see external links

that the Soviet Union's announcement that Ilyushin had been involved in a serious

You must be logged on to see external links

was really a cover story for a 7 April 1961 spaceflight gone wrong. A similar story was told by French broadcaster Eduard Bobrovsky, but his version had the launch occurring in March, resulting in Ilyushin slipping into a . tracking stations, however, had no record of any such launch. Later that year, transmitted the rumor by claiming that Gagarin had never flown, and was merely a stand-in for the sickened Ilyushin. The 1999 film The Cosmonaut Cover-Up takes the position that Ilyushin was the first man in space and discusses the alleged cover-up in detail. They claim, "According to recently declassified documents, Ilyushin was placed in a capsule named Rossiya, and the secret flight took place in the early hours of the morning, on Friday April 7th 1961". After a guidance malfunction, the cosmonaut is reported to have made an unguided crash landing in China, too critically injured to announce the mission a complete success. The 2009 film Fallen Idol: The Yuri Gagarin Conspiracy also takes the same position and further discusses US efforts to continue the allegation, even citing national security not to release information under the . The data sought was from the tracking station at that supposedly covered and recorded Iluyshin's failed mission.

According to Mark Wade, editor of the space history web site , "The entire early history of the Soviet manned space program has been declassified and we have piles of memoirs of cosmonauts, engineers, etc., who participated. We know who was in the original cosmonaut team, who never flew, was dismissed, or was killed in ground tests. Ilyushin is not one of them."

As regards the moon landings, none of the evidence to refute the moon landings occurring stands up to me - particularly as they have now got surface photos of the stuff left on the moon through more recent missions. I think they have never bothered going back to the moon as there isn't anything an astronaut can do that an automated lander can and as we have already been there isn't any kudos or political capital in going there - I suspect China may try to land people there pretty soon to validate their space program and as a show of their "prowess".

Also remember that the bloke I was replying to doesn't believe in space at all and every single space mission is a fake.......

America are planning to go back this decade

 

[taipeisafc]

And you read this, where?

It was stated by an Apollo astronaut in an interview with Brian Cox, he was answering a question from Biran Cox about why the US hadn't been back to the moon and he replied with "remember back then we had 400,000 people working on the Apollo program along with unlimited budget" he stated you could do a lot with that amount of resource.

Also here:-

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and here :-

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Along with here :-

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America are planning to go back this decade

They were talking about 2024 but I did read that wasn't going to happen - it is as a precursor to manned mars missions IIRC. I still suspect China will be pushing ahead faster as they will see it as a validation of sorts.

 

[payne]

Also here:-

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and here :-

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Along with here :-

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They were talking about 2024 but I did read that wasn't going to happen - it is as a precursor to manned mars missions IIRC. I still suspect China will be pushing ahead faster as they will see it as a validation of sorts.

Aye makes sense if they want to project their superpower status

 

[DaveH]

You're a little bit of an astronomer, aren't you? Astronomy is basically looking up at the sky and what is supposedly in it, or should I say above it according to people.
So you follow what you've been told and view stuff based on what you've been told. Why do you need to be a liar?

I don't think you're lying any more than I think the one's arguing with me are lying.
They're doing exactly what I would expect them to do, which is regurgitate what they were taught and what they actually read, reference and put out as their regurgitated argument against what I'm saying.
That's not being a liar.

Do people lie. Yes.
Is it possible people tell lies on here. Yes.
It's also possible that people get mistaken in their beliefs of what they think they see, such as people trying to argue they see Earth curvature from a plane. Mistaken, not lies.
It's just following set narratives in many cases or merely parroting.


We all do it and it doesn't mean we're liars.
I'd be a liar if I offered what I say as factual.

As for those who pretend they're in space rockets and what not. I think they're actors. Bad actors but actors all the same.
Are actors liars?
It depends on how they view their reasoning for acting or whether they feel compelled to tell people they are acting out scenes.

There is astronomy of just looking at the sky, which is what I do and then there is astronomy of actually putting stuff into the sky for a closer, more detailed look at planets, astroids. People who designed and sent space probes, people who do the analysis on the results people who would know if is their system they are communicating to that is responding from another part of the solar system.

What about those people, are they liars or is someone conning them?

 

[Nukehasslefan]

There is astronomy of just looking at the sky, which is what I do and then there is astronomy of actually putting stuff into the sky for a closer, more detailed look at planets, astroids.

Ahhh right. So a few hundred miles up, as we are told will make all the difference to seeing light from a few million years ago, as we're told...will it?
There's looking up at the sky and thinking the stuff in it is actually in space because you were told and there's looking up at the sky and wondering what it all really is about.

People who designed and sent space probes, people who do the analysis on the results people who would know if is their system they are communicating to that is responding from another part of the solar system.

Aye, so we're told.

What about those people, are they liars or is someone conning them?

It depends on who you're talking about.

 

[DaveH]

Ahhh right. So a few hundred miles up, as we are told will make all the difference to seeing light from a few million years ago, as we're told...will it?
There's looking up at the sky and thinking the stuff in it is actually in space because you were told and there's looking up at the sky and wondering what it all really is about.


Aye, so we're told.

It depends on who you're talking about.

More than a few hundred miles up. I'm talking about probes like Voyager, Cassini, Juno etc.

Take for example the aurora/northern lights. They have been observed on other planets from powerful earth based telescopes, so ESA working with NASA and the University of Leicester wanted to investigate it in more detail as one of the many science objectives in their Juno mission

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I've picked on that because you said 'who', and I'd just been reading an article by someone called JD Nichols about the results they found and their ongoing analysis into the data received. When looking for a link to post in here I found this article on the NASA site which was anticipating the probe arriving and it turns out it is by the same person:

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So this idea of investigating it has been going on a number of years. It looks like this person was involved from start to finish, in the mission spec, the instruments, the design and the analysis of their area of the mission. I would imagine it would be very hard to fake data for this person. It goes way beyond a pretty CGI picture, you are talking about combined data from multiple sensors which behave in certain ways that they appear to be the world expert on. I would imagine it would be very hard to produce fake data that they would not raise alarms. It could be they are easily fooled, but doesn't seem likely.

While possible that only leaves two other possible options. Are they a liar and only pretending to have been involved with this mission? Or you do have to ask, are they actual real? I mean I can sign any name on the bottom of this post. Are all these people we see producing papers fake scientists? What do you think?

It feels hard to make a conspiracy like this work, so if we were to be in charge of the cover up, how would we do it?

 

[Nukehasslefan]

More than a few hundred miles up. I'm talking about probes like Voyager, Cassini, Juno etc.

Of course. That's what you're told and you believe it all. Fair enough. I clearly don't.

Take for example the aurora/northern lights. They have been observed on other planets from powerful earth based telescopes, so ESA working with NASA and the University of Leicester wanted to investigate it in more detail as one of the many science objectives in their Juno mission

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Same again. You're going on what you've been schooled into. Seriously. You believe that like many do. Again, fair enough. I simply do not.

I've picked on that because you said 'who', and I'd just been reading an article by someone called JD Nichols about the results they found and their ongoing analysis into the data received. When looking for a link to post in here I found this article on the NASA site which was anticipating the probe arriving and it turns out it is by the same person:

You must be logged on to see external links

All decent stories for those that want too follow.
Many people follow many stories. Some are factual and some are fiction. And some can be a mixture of both. Do you agree?

So this idea of investigating it has been going on a number of years. It looks like this person was involved from start to finish, in the mission spec, the instruments, the design and the analysis of their area of the mission. I would imagine it would be very hard to fake data for this person. It goes way beyond a pretty CGI picture, you are talking about combined data from multiple sensors which behave in certain ways that they appear to be the world expert on. I would imagine it would be very hard to produce fake data that they would not raise alarms. It could be they are easily fooled, but doesn't seem likely.

To you it doesn't seem likely. It also doesn't seem likely the moon landings were faked but to others, it does seem more than likely.
The issue is proving it from both sides.
The thing with this space stuff, it contradicts and when the issues are brought up there's reasons for it, just made up.
But.... like I said: it's all about a belief system and who accepts that belief system without proof.

While possible that only leaves two other possible options. Are they a liar and only pretending to have been involved with this mission? Or you do have to ask, are they actual real? I mean I can sign any name on the bottom of this post. Are all these people we see producing papers fake scientists? What do you think?

I think you know what I think.
However, it all depends on how they're coaxed into it, in my opinion.
I mean, do you intentionally lie to younguns about santa because you are evil? Noooo. You intentionally lie in order to be the opposite.
Maybe they're told it's for the greater good.

It feels hard to make a conspiracy like this work, so if we were to be in charge of the cover up, how would we do it?

Pretty easily to be fair.

Do you have any idea what a gothermic runedarran exomasstinic pallasteron is?

I'll let you look it up and see if you can figure it out.

 

[Lefty Frizzell]

Of course. That's what you're told and you believe it all. Fair enough. I clearly don't.


Same again. You're going on what you've been schooled into. Seriously. You believe that like many do. Again, fair enough. I simply do not.


All decent stories for those that want too follow.
Many people follow many stories. Some are factual and some are fiction. And some can be a mixture of both. Do you agree?

To you it doesn't seem likely. It also doesn't seem likely the moon landings were faked but to others, it does seem more than likely.
The issue is proving it from both sides.
The thing with this space stuff, it contradicts and when the issues are brought up there's reasons for it, just made up.
But.... like I said: it's all about a belief system and who accepts that belief system without proof.


I think you know what I think.
However, it all depends on how they're coaxed into it, in my opinion.
I mean, do you intentionally lie to younguns about santa because you are evil? Noooo. You intentionally lie in order to be the opposite.
Maybe they're told it's for the greater good.

Pretty easily to be fair.

Do you have any idea what a gothermic runedarran exomasstinic pallasteron is?

I'll let you look it up and see if you can figure it out.

Just wanted to say that you should ignore the odd ball who is just coming on here to have a dig at you and encouraging others to stop conversing with you.

It’s genuinely interesting and entertaining to read this thread and you and a few others have such fantastic knowledge of your subjects that reading the conversations is like a debate you would pay money to go and observe!

 

[chrismisterx]

I hadn't heard about the Ilyushin thing before but a quick google and wikipedia suggest it is somewhat unfounded :-

Alleged first person in space[

You must be logged on to see external links

]​

Two days before Gagarin's launch on 12 April 1961, Dennis Ogden wrote in the Western Communist newspaper the

You must be logged on to see external links

that the Soviet Union's announcement that Ilyushin had been involved in a serious

You must be logged on to see external links

was really a cover story for a 7 April 1961 spaceflight gone wrong. A similar story was told by French broadcaster Eduard Bobrovsky, but his version had the launch occurring in March, resulting in Ilyushin slipping into a . tracking stations, however, had no record of any such launch. Later that year, transmitted the rumor by claiming that Gagarin had never flown, and was merely a stand-in for the sickened Ilyushin. The 1999 film The Cosmonaut Cover-Up takes the position that Ilyushin was the first man in space and discusses the alleged cover-up in detail. They claim, "According to recently declassified documents, Ilyushin was placed in a capsule named Rossiya, and the secret flight took place in the early hours of the morning, on Friday April 7th 1961". After a guidance malfunction, the cosmonaut is reported to have made an unguided crash landing in China, too critically injured to announce the mission a complete success. The 2009 film Fallen Idol: The Yuri Gagarin Conspiracy also takes the same position and further discusses US efforts to continue the allegation, even citing national security not to release information under the . The data sought was from the tracking station at that supposedly covered and recorded Iluyshin's failed mission.

According to Mark Wade, editor of the space history web site , "The entire early history of the Soviet manned space program has been declassified and we have piles of memoirs of cosmonauts, engineers, etc., who participated. We know who was in the original cosmonaut team, who never flew, was dismissed, or was killed in ground tests. Ilyushin is not one of them."

As regards the moon landings, none of the evidence to refute the moon landings occurring stands up to me - particularly as they have now got surface photos of the stuff left on the moon through more recent missions. I think they have never bothered going back to the moon as there isn't anything an astronaut can do that an automated lander can and as we have already been there isn't any kudos or political capital in going there - I suspect China may try to land people there pretty soon to validate their space program and as a show of their "prowess".

Also remember that the bloke I was replying to doesn't believe in space at all and every single space mission is a fake.......

Oh indeed, no doubt we have been to space, i personally think we have been to the moon, watched a couple of documentaries which kind of leave room for doubt with regards the first man in space and the time, from US and USSR sources, but its the difference of a couple of days and they did go to space.

Have watched some stuff online with regards the first moon landing, not that it didn't happen but the first crew were very ill because of the radiation from the belt, this wouldn't have looked good as a pr thing and so the back up crew stepped in, this theory was thrown out there because of some of the stuff Armstrong and co said, is it true no idea, but makes more sense coving up the illness / deaths of 3 people than the whole lot being fake.

Interesting anyway, i found out about the Marshall island cover ups because I watched some stuff about Apollo and different theories, so I learnt to keep an open mind for most things.

Its just as interesting the thoughts that future missions might not be abled to launch from earth if we keep with all the crap in space, could form a "belt of space debris that would be a danger to any craft leaving, something i never thought about was what happens to the rubbish.

 

[fyl2u]

Do you have any idea what a gothermic runedarran exomasstinic pallasteron is?

I'll let you look it up and see if you can figure it out.

Four words that don't exist, just like your cell earth and your grasp of science and maths?

 

[legend7]

Ahhh right. So a few hundred miles up, as we are told will make all the difference to seeing light from a few million years ago, as we're told...will it?

Well you reckon because of atmospheric pressure that's why we can't see things about 50 miles away so you must agree it will make a huge difference?

Plus amateur shot of ISS, that's a funny reflection from the crystals or I suppose this fella is in on the big lie too?

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[DPTT]

Got to say while I’ve enjoyed this thread and have no issue with his “musings” this @Nukehasslefan fella has been largely a complete an utter knob these last few days like.

 

[Kevj]

Well you reckon because of atmospheric pressure that's why we can't see things about 50 miles away so you must agree it will make a huge difference?

Plus amateur shot of ISS, that's a funny reflection from the crystals or I suppose this fella is in on the big lie too?

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Commodore 64 CGI that.

 

[payne]

proper liar this fella. little strings and that.....wtf

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[fyl2u]

proper liar this fella. little strings and that.....wtf

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I love Brian Greene, I do. I read one of his books a while back - The Elegant Universe - Superstrings, Hidden Dimensions, and the Quest for the Ultimate Theory.

Absolutely cracking read.

 

[payne]

I love Brian Greene, I do. I read one of his books a while back - The Elegant Universe - Superstrings, Hidden Dimensions, and the Quest for the Ultimate Theory.

Absolutely cracking read.

i've not read any of his stuff but watched ted talks and rogan interviews etc. Like his stuff, he's also not presenting it as fact so Dome Guy will like him

 

[fyl2u]

i've not read any of his stuff but watched ted talks and rogan interviews etc. Like his stuff, he's also not presenting it as fact so Dome Guy will like him

It'd go way over Cellboy's head. He needs to start a little lower than string theory/m-theory. Perhaps the Children's Guide To The Solar System would be more apt for him.

 

[payne]

It'd go way over Cellboy's head. He needs to start a little lower than string theory/m-theory. Perhaps the Children's Guide To The Solar System would be more apt for him.

yeah I suppose Green still believes space exists
Hadfield not even hiding he's making it up

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