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Pakistan v England - 1st Test, Dubai

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rentaghost said:
Some massive overreaction as usual. Terrible performance with the bat but lets not jump to any conclusions about being 'terrible against spin' - It seems to me from what iive read rather than seen thats theres been some pretty poor shot selection rather than being rabbits in the headlights.

This England team is made of stern stuff and I expect them to come back strongly and all our front line batters (Strauss excepted possibly) can work out methods to score runs against that attack in those conditions.

EB setting himself up for a fall as usual
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essex boy said:
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Perfectly reasonable article - in my opinion James is being rightly critical of batsman not working out a method that was effective in this match. He doesnt say that our players cant play spin - in the article he points out that Trott looked very comfortable unti he was out to seam and you know that Bell and Cook in particular can play spin very well.

"What is certain is that no England batsman, again bar possibly Trott, found the correct mindset or tempo today"

"There is much work to do. As I said, yesterday every individual batsman must work out their own method, work hard at it and then stick to it."

"I have not seen one England batsman in this game- maybe with the exception of Jonathan Trott in the second innings- who has looked confident and sure of his method against the spinners"

It doesnt get away from the fact that batting away from home in those type of conditions is Englands weakest area but one match doesnt mean they are completely incapable. I back them to come back well.
 
rentaghost said:
Some massive overreaction as usual. Terrible performance with the bat but lets not jump to any conclusions about being 'terrible against spin' - It seems to me from what iive read rather than seen thats theres been some pretty poor shot selection rather than being rabbits in the headlights.

This England team is made of stern stuff and I expect them to come back strongly and all our front line batters (Strauss excepted possibly) can work out methods to score runs against that attack in those conditions.

EB setting himself up for a fall as usual
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Can you imagine what EB would have been like if this place had existed after Lords 2005 :-)
 
essex boy said:
Let me explain this simply.

Most commentators who have played and watched a lot of cricket, said England did exceedingly well to bowl Pakistan out for 300 on a flat pitch which didnt turn. The fact 15 wickets fell to spin was down to the fact that England are hopeless against it not because they are playing on a dry bunsen which is turning square.

Let me explain this simply.

When a team underperforms woefully with the bat, it is usually give a chance to redeem itself not dropping people after one test which has been given as a reason for Englands success of late, espeically dropping someone who has put in some remarkable performances with the ball of late. Pakistan illustrated with their batting that seamers are just as likely to get them out as spinners.

Your comment is typical of the 'English disease' where you lose a test and change is required. Our flaws run a lot deeper than swapping a seamer for a spinner and expect everything to be alright.

Panesar record in Asia is 19 wickets @ 53.68 as per the attached

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Gotta say there are some very valid points in this post.

dangermows said:
344
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was supposed to be this but they edged a four when trying to play one out. cost a load of cash and heads will roll.

* sorry, my maths aint up to speed :oops:
 
dangermows said:
Gotta say there are some very valid points in this post.



was supposed to be this but they edged a four when trying to play one out. cost a load of cash and heads will roll.

* sorry, my maths aint up to speed :oops:
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there is but 'our flaws run a lot deeper than......' fuck me you think it was the England team of the 90s :neutral:
 
rentaghost said:
there is but 'our flaws run a lot deeper than......' fuck me you think it was the England team of the 90s :neutral:
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The key difference being central contracts, and no powerhouse Australian team to contend with, the Indian batting line up now the wrong side of 30 as oppose to the right side and two test nations whose best players have long written off test cricket in Windies and NZ.

Neither side in the 90s nor now had a clue against quality spinners in their own back yard. Nothing has changed and it doesnt matter if Harry Houdini is coach our batsman simply dont get enough exposure to it.
 
essex boy said:
The key difference being central contracts, and no powerhouse Australian team to contend with, the Indian batting line up now the wrong side of 30 as oppose to the right side and two test nations whose best players have long written off test cricket in Windies and NZ.

Neither side in the 90s nor now had a clue against quality spinners in their own back yard. Nothing has changed and it doesnt matter if Harry Houdini is coach our batsman simply dont get enough exposure to it.
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why not flip it the other way and talk about how india/pakistan/sri lanka etc are not ecposed enough to a moving/seaming/swinging ball? hence when they come here they get completely and utterly destroyed?

we do well in our conditions, others in theres. nothing wrong with that really.

re: spin. we might not have clue against it but the ball didnt even spin this test match, which is more alarming :lol:
 
Headingley 09, Perth 10 and now this, I've no real concerns about this England team as they have shown great character coming back from heavy defeats in the past.

As mentioned, England's downfall was mainly poor shot selection rather than getting stuck against spin (It barely span at all tbh), Pietersen in particular playing a dreadful shot in the 2nd innings but these batsmen have the quality and patience to score big on slow pitches. Cook, Bell, Trott and KP have all hit double's in the last 12 months.

Team selection wise, as much as I'm a fan of Morgan it may be time to let Prior move up to 6 and bring in Panesar. Only problem there is you have a long tail with Anderson, Tremlett and Panesar but you have to back your top 6 to get you runs and they are more then capable. Despite glimpses of quality in the test arena, Morgan does not look settled and technically equipped to bat orthodoxly against probing, outside off stump seam bowling, and his get-out shots in ODI's aren't as effective in the more patient, innings building test format.

If you were worried about dropping Morgan and leaving a long tail, you could always pick Patel at 6 and use him as a 2nd spinner but I'm not sure he's good enough in either format to justify dropping someone who is a good player of spin. As I said before the series I'd be tempted to go with Bopara as his medium pacers suddenly look a lot harder to get away on these type of pitches - a point proved in the last world cup where he bowled tightly and effectively in a couple of games. You can then look to bring in Panesar for Tremlett who I don't think is going to get much favour out of these turgid and docile pitches, and we already have a bang it in bowler in Broad. It would leave a lot of work to Jimmy and Broad but it worked for Pakistan in the last test and they are 2 fit lads so I think that's the way I'd go as Bopara is usually a good player of spin too.
 
The Breen Machine said:
Headingley 09, Perth 10 and now this, I've no real concerns about this England team as they have shown great character coming back from heavy defeats in the past.

As mentioned, England's downfall was mainly poor shot selection rather than getting stuck against spin (It barely span at all tbh), Pietersen in particular playing a dreadful shot in the 2nd innings but these batsmen have the quality and patience to score big on slow pitches. Cook, Bell, Trott and KP have all hit double's in the last 12 months.

Team selection wise, as much as I'm a fan of Morgan it may be time to let Prior move up to 6 and bring in Panesar. Only problem there is you have a long tail with Anderson, Tremlett and Panesar but you have to back your top 6 to get you runs and they are more then capable. Despite glimpses of quality in the test arena, Morgan does not look settled and technically equipped to bat orthodoxly against probing, outside off stump seam bowling, and his get-out shots in ODI's aren't as effective in the more patient, innings building test format.

If you were worried about dropping Morgan and leaving a long tail, you could always pick Patel at 6 and use him as a 2nd spinner but I'm not sure he's good enough in either format to justify dropping someone who is a good player of spin. As I said before the series I'd be tempted to go with Bopara as his medium pacers suddenly look a lot harder to get away on these type of pitches - a point proved in the last world cup where he bowled tightly and effectively in a couple of games. You can then look to bring in Panesar for Tremlett who I don't think is going to get much favour out of these turgid and docile pitches, and we already have a bang it in bowler in Broad. It would leave a lot of work to Jimmy and Broad but it worked for Pakistan in the last test and they are 2 fit lads so I think that's the way I'd go as Bopara is usually a good player of spin too.
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id leave the side as it is except tremlett out and panesar in.

i hear what you are saying about bopara but imo trott proved he can do a job with the ball as well (nothing special but can do enough to have a spell to rest a bowler).

yes bopara is supposed to be good against spin but im pretty sure he failed last time we were in the sub? morgan is also supposed to be a great player of spin, although he seems to do his damage in the ODI's.

the batsmen need to calm down and realise 2 an over on these pitches is as good as 3 an over on english decks.
 
^^ Bopara averaged 8 in 5 innings when we were last in Sri Lanka. He's a player I don't rate at all, if we're going to drop a batsman it should be for a bowler or an all-rounder; not someone who gets in the team because he can bowl a bit of bog standard medium pace.

I'd also leave Tremlett out but bring Finn into the side instead. The one thing this team lacks is raw pace and Finn is without doubt the fastest of our bowlers, Tremlett just doesn't look anywhere near threatening enough in these conditions. If the pitches are as flat as the one in the first test I can't see Panesar having much joy to be honest.
 
Dexter said:
^^ Bopara averaged 8 in 5 innings when we were last in Sri Lanka. He's a player I don't rate at all, if we're going to drop a batsman it should be for a bowler or an all-rounder; not someone who gets in the team because he can bowl a bit of bog standard medium pace.

I'd also leave Tremlett out but bring Finn into the side instead. The one thing this team lacks is raw pace and Finn is without doubt the fastest of our bowlers, Tremlett just doesn't look anywhere near threatening enough in these conditions. If the pitches are as flat as the one in the first test I can't see Panesar having much joy to be honest.
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I agree with this, I don't rate Bopara at all and don't think he could offer the team anything with the bat that Morgan can't or anything with the ball that Trott can't. Tremlett out, Finn in. A decent variety with the ball and a chance for the batsmen to put things right.
 
The Breen Machine said:
Headingley 09, Perth 10 and now this, I've no real concerns about this England team as they have shown great character coming back from heavy defeats in the past.

As mentioned, England's downfall was mainly poor shot selection rather than getting stuck against spin (It barely span at all tbh), Pietersen in particular playing a dreadful shot in the 2nd innings but these batsmen have the quality and patience to score big on slow pitches. Cook, Bell, Trott and KP have all hit double's in the last 12 months.

Team selection wise, as much as I'm a fan of Morgan it may be time to let Prior move up to 6 and bring in Panesar. Only problem there is you have a long tail with Anderson, Tremlett and Panesar but you have to back your top 6 to get you runs and they are more then capable. Despite glimpses of quality in the test arena, Morgan does not look settled and technically equipped to bat orthodoxly against probing, outside off stump seam bowling, and his get-out shots in ODI's aren't as effective in the more patient, innings building test format.

If you were worried about dropping Morgan and leaving a long tail, you could always pick Patel at 6 and use him as a 2nd spinner but I'm not sure he's good enough in either format to justify dropping someone who is a good player of spin. As I said before the series I'd be tempted to go with Bopara as his medium pacers suddenly look a lot harder to get away on these type of pitches - a point proved in the last world cup where he bowled tightly and effectively in a couple of games. You can then look to bring in Panesar for Tremlett who I don't think is going to get much favour out of these turgid and docile pitches, and we already have a bang it in bowler in Broad. It would leave a lot of work to Jimmy and Broad but it worked for Pakistan in the last test and they are 2 fit lads so I think that's the way I'd go as Bopara is usually a good player of spin too.
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Good post.
 
Bopara did struggle in SL but that was almost 5 years ago now and he was a young lad back then. I'm not saying I think he has improved greatly in that time as he's always had a lot of natural ability, I'd just be inclined to give him a go at 6 as he bowled a fair few overs for Essex last season so should be a better option than Trott.

Having said that, I think I'd prefer to move Prior up to 6 ideally and play 5 bowlers, however this is where the loss of Bresnan is so apparent as he would really strengthen the tail, without him we will be left with Anderson, Tremlett/Finn and Onions as 9, 10 and jack.

I do like the call of Finn over Tremlett mind, I don't think Tremlett will get much out of these pitches whereas Finn is more skiddy off the surface and may rush a few batsmen.
 
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