Loans/ Debt to the owners

[Hep]

Finally.

Finally we are there with you. Then why are they quoting that they’ve wanted to get at least THEIR £37m on the club. They haven’t spent that on the club. This is the rub. If they were willing to sell at around the £15m mark then a lot of what you say would be ok. It’s not what they’re after though.

Their greed and incompetence has cost the club dearly. We’re also staring at a 5th season in the THIRD division. They are leeches. Stop defending them or their actions.

I won’t even go into their lies, contradictions, slurs and hawking out the academy

I'm not defending them, I've said repeatedly what they said and how they've said it has been very wrong.

Aye, but the fact they have spent it on Grigg (and on keeping the lights on) means they can't really say that they've added value. So if the shares were only really £12m, then Donald can't even begin to ask for more than £4m for his share. And like I say, if he's fed in £5m to keep the lights on and would get that back as its a loan, he can't just say his share is £9m! I'd suggest he should be giving the shares away for nowt and then, when the £5m is repaid, he's done pretty well out of it. Basically I've got nowt against businessmen making money. But alas if you buy a business, it's loss making and you fail to turn it around, you can also make a loss (or "your capital is at risk" as all the investment ads say). Otherwise we'd all be businessmen

I would agree, the club is worth less than the £12.7m he effectively paid for it. He hasn't got a chance of getting £40m+

 

[Boris Bear]

Maybe those fans who kidnapped his daughter were just getting our money back

 

[Johnnyh]

Aye, but the fact they have spent it on Grigg (and on keeping the lights on) means they can't really say that they've added value. So if the shares were only really £12m, then Donald can't even begin to ask for more than £4m for his share. And like I say, if he's fed in £5m to keep the lights on and would get that back as its a loan, he can't just say his share is £9m! I'd suggest he should be giving the shares away for nowt and then, when the £5m is repaid, he's done pretty well out of it. Basically I've got nowt against businessmen making money. But alas if you buy a business, it's loss making and you fail to turn it around, you can also make a loss (or "your capital is at risk" as all the investment ads say). Otherwise we'd all be businessmen

Exactly mate and that last paragraph says it all for me.

 

[Hep]

Well its a load of very strange posts,that if i was employed by the shits i couldnt have compiled a better club response

What just because I don't agree with everyone? This is a forum to discuss things, not just insist everyone thinks the same.

Let me clarify, I've never met or had any dealings with any of the Madrox folk.

It's very shallow thinking, if you can only think everything that happens is bad. They've put money into the club, that's better than not putting money into the club however it's done.

As fans we need to better understand what it is we really want.

If KLD had £10m to invest, what do you think he should do with it?

Perhaps GOM might know? Is the directors of a business loaning the business money a tax dodge?

It can be useful

 

[stevo]

What just because I don't agree with everyone? This is a forum to discuss things, not just insist everyone thinks the same.

Let me clarify, I've never met or had any dealings with any of the Madrox folk.

It's very shallow thinking, if you can only think everything that happens is bad. They've put money into the club, that's better than not putting money into the club however it's done.

As fans we need to better understand what it is we really want.

If KLD had £10m to invest, what do you think he should do with it?

It can be useful

How are they putting money,they still owe us thousands,just put that back in ,no need for getting Provies out

 

[molthemackem]

How are they putting money,they still owe us thousands,just put that back in ,no need for getting Provies out

Donald appears to have secured loans from banks for his other business interests..

 

[stevo]

Donald appears to have secured loans from banks for his other business interests..

Do we know what he has secured them against mate.

 

[molthemackem]

Do we know what he has secured them against mate.

From having a delve at CH he has at least two secured bank loans on 2 company's and is the person with Significant Control (PSC) on a few more with his mate .. I've just started to poke around but his wealth is estimated at only £8.4 m

 

[JAZZMANB]

Finally.

Finally we are there with you. Then why are they quoting that they’ve wanted to get at least THEIR £37m on the club. They haven’t spent that on the club. This is the rub. If they were willing to sell at around the £15m mark then a lot of what you say would be ok. It’s not what they’re after though.

Their greed and incompetence has cost the club dearly. We’re also staring at a 5th season in the THIRD division. They are leeches. Stop defending them or their actions.

I won’t even go into their lies, contradictions, slurs and hawking out the academy

I've dropped into the middle of this topic but are you saying you cant count the value of the debt paid from the parachute payment as what the owners have put into the club ? i know it hasnt gone down well and in another world that lump would have been free to improve the clubs position but it doesnt change the value of the purchase they made . If you get a buy to let mortgage on the strengths of big rents due ,it doesn't alter the value of the property for resale .It was like a bridging loan,if theyd had the full amount to pay short then the parachute would have been their cash anyway
if thats not what these figure are about ,apologies

I mean this nails it. Basically because Donald savagely cut outlay and debt he thinks he create a more saleable club which is probably true, but it doesn’t mean it’s worth more money. The building blocks have to be there to improve and in reality it became a badly functioning shell with any potential assets sold and money needed to repair crumbling structures. They just stopped it being a financial liability debt wise by selling our future out. Easier to sell, but requiring investment.
So if someone else does the investment , as KLD has done with the academy set up, staffing, pitch etc they should have the financial benefits. Donald wants out without putting in. In short he is a spiv abs a weasel. If KLD wasn’t to buy his shares though, the balance could be messy for KLD ie another party with Donalds shares would unsettle us and we know Donald cares more about his wealth than doing the right thing by us so to me KLD is important for our stability unless someone would take the bang lot which is unlikely in our league form and position.

Donald is still responsible for outlay to his % owenership on the day to day running of the club from what i understand so like most sellers they'll come a point when he has to drop to what someone will pay . Something costing him doesn't sound like an asset

 

[Hep]

How are they putting money,they still owe us thousands,just put that back in ,no need for getting Provies out

The money has left their personal bank accounts and is now in the club company accounts.

They don't owe 'us' anything, they own the club.

 

[Deleted member 30053]

Hep you are doing the exact same thing as you did the other day.

The other day when I asked you questions all you went on about was the South Stand completely diverting from everything I asked.

Today you are constantly going on about the loan.I have never once asked you about the loan.

I will ask again. Why as apparently you are a supposed to be a Sunderland fan do you choose to run down the fans from this working class region who struggle to make ends meet but still invest their hard earned money into SAFC but yet you stand by owners who have millions of pounds to their name whilst dragging the football club to depths we've never seen before.

And again Ill point out how you never deny having connections to the owners. If I was being called a club stooge or even being accused of actually being Charlie Methven Id be denying it thoroughly. You don't deny but simply go silent and to try change the topic.

You are as bad as the people you are clearly in bed with at SAFC.

He’s the worst poster on the board as he actually claims to be a fan from the area. No genuine long term fan would go on the way he does. His whole argument seems to be “what does it matter?”. Utterly pathetic. Of course everything f***ing matters!!!

 

[stevo]

From having a delve at CH he has at least two secured bank loans on 2 company's and is the person with Significant Control (PSC) on a few more with his mate .. I've just started to poke around but his wealth is estimated at only £8.4 m

Dear me sounds like he is like a gambler chasing bets.I think you could be right about the long game here.They can neither keep putting in on a mthly basis or even worse bankroll replacing up to 15 players in the champo.We could be close to the end game here

 

[Father Jack Hackett]

So, they've "bought" the club for £35m of which over £20m was parachute payements, the repayments of which are in the form of loans?
Therefore, they'll have actually paid £10-£12m for the entire club (probably what KLD paid for 41%) and value it now at £35m as a 5 year League One club with next to no assets to flog, next to no telly money coming-in and no parachute payments?

The money has left their personal bank accounts and is now in the club company accounts.

They don't owe 'us' anything, they own the club.

'We' are the club and always will be. The main selling point whilst we are at this level will be 'us'

 

[Deleted member 30053]

I can only go on what I was told at the liaison meeting in June 2019 by Methven. He even said that the original plan was for that £25m to go straight to Short from the PL, which changed only when Angela Lowes pointed out that PL regulations only allow payment into an account in the club's name (pretty obvious when you think about it). The evidence is there that the last £25m of the debt was moved. Drumaville took out a £25m loan from SBC shortly before the completion (I stumbled on the charge document at the CH page for the Hilton). This charge, and the ones over the club, were not lifted until April 2019, on the same date. It's pretty clear that the £25m was the club debt. Short wanted £37m because he didn't want to clear any more of the debt personally (he'd already paid £45m of it via his loans to the club, which were capitalised). All the evidence points to £15m for the shares (reduced to £12.7m when N'Dong's move to Watford fell through) and £25m loan repayment, The only argument is who was intended to pay the £25m, Madrox or the club. Methven, in a minuted meeting, clearly said the latter.

Well if Charlie said it it must be true then!

 

[stevo]

He’s the worst poster on the board as he actually claims to be a fan from the area. No genuine long term fan would go on the way he does.

Thats what i said,But Nemo came to his defense saying he has posted for years but surely that account could be anyone taking over the acct

 

[10 Gary Rowells]

No but I didn't fall for their bullshit.

So if I was happy when they came in as it meant we moved from £150M in debt to where we called 'debt free' was an arse-licker? Thinking Ross was a good appointment - arse-licker. And am I presuming you knew straight away that they used the parachute payments to buy the club and you knew when they came in that they planned to finance day to day running of the club by selling off our youth talent for buttons? Basically, your post was an arrogant slagging off of fellow fans - the type of post I detest.

 

[Deleted member 30053]

Thats what i said,But Nemo came to his defense saying he has posted for years but surely that account could be anyone taking over the acct

Whoever is behind the account has a superiority complex and is of the opinion that pretty much every other fan is thick or wrong. The irony here is that this poster has continually posted utter rubbish which is of very little use to anyone. It’s either condemning the opinions of other fans or telling them that nothing they say really matters anyway. That’s his modus operandi. He doesn’t offer any constructive argument himself on any topic. He just tells fans they are a) wrong b) stupid or c) what they’ve said doesn’t matter. I’ve yet to see him comment on any subject with any real thought or opinion. He’s always trying to either put out fires, beat people down or piss people off.

 

[Guinness Guzzler]

I would agree, the club is worth less than the £12.7m he effectively paid for it. He hasn't got a chance of getting £40m+

So are we starting to find some common ground then? Donald (well, Madrox, but let's keep it simple) bought the shares for £12m. Nothing he has done has increased that value (in fact its likely dropped as we have no parachute payments and have made next to no progress on the pitch).

Does this mean we agree that £4m for Donald's 34% is about right, if not on the high side? And even if he's also fed £10m in since buying it, that doesn't increase the worth of his shares due to the lack of progress and thus the value of the club not increasing? In fact, if they have been put in as a loan, so he's owed £10m, then his shares would be worthless because they're only worth £4m even if the club doesn't owe anyone £10m? After all the £12m was for a "debt free" club

Assuming those points are all agreed, and they seem to be, we're basically on the same page. The difference is that I don't trust Donald at all. I don't think he'll be telling kld he can take the shares for nowt, he wants £4m paying back, and whatever else he's put in is simply a loss. I think if he was asking that, kld would have bought him out long ago. Certainly, given everything else that has gone on, I don't think you, I, or any other fan should be giving Donald any benefit of the doubt until he comes out plainly and tells us how much he's selling his shares for. There's a very good chance he's hamstringing the club, and that's the answer to your question of why people care

 

[Royal redhouse]

Whoever is behind the account has a superiority complex and is of the opinion that pretty much every other fan is thick or wrong. The irony here is that this poster has continually posted utter rubbish which is of very little use to anyone. It’s either condemning the opinions of other fans or telling them that nothing they say really matters anyway. That’s his modus operandi. He doesn’t offer any constructive argument himself on any topic. He just tells fans they are a) wrong b) stupid or c) what they’ve said doesn’t matter. I’ve yet to see him comment on any subject with any real thought or opinion. He’s always trying to either put out fires, beat people down or piss people off.

and hes a f***ing prick

 

[Father Jack Hackett]

So are we starting to find some common ground then? Donald (well, Madrox, but let's keep it simple) bought the shares for £12m. Nothing he has done has increased that value (in fact its likely dropped as we have no parachute payments and have made next to no progress on the pitch).

Does this mean we agree that £4m for Donald's 34% is about right, if not on the high side? And even if he's also fed £10m in since buying it, that doesn't increase the worth of his shares due to the lack of progress and thus the value of the club not increasing? In fact, if they have been put in as a loan, so he's owed £10m, then his shares would be worthless because they're only worth £4m even if the club doesn't owe anyone £10m? After all the £12m was for a "debt free" club

Assuming those points are all agreed, and they seem to be, we're basically on the same page. The difference is that I don't trust Donald at all. I don't think he'll be telling kld he can take the shares for nowt, he wants £4m paying back, and whatever else he's put in is simply a loss. I think if he was asking that, kld would have bought him out long ago. Certainly, given everything else that has gone on, I don't think you, I, or any other fan should be giving Donald any benefit of the doubt until he comes out plainly and tells us how much he's selling his shares for. There's a very good chance he's hamstringing the club, and that's the answer to your question of why people care

Donald was on the radio saying, if the fans wanted to buy him out then £35m and he'd be gone. I think we know he wants, what he put in as well as the value of the parachute money. Along with his slimeball mate, the biggest enemies in the history of our great club.