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Lee Mason - VAR

That and the fact some think we always get the rough end of the stick when we just the same as any other club.

You're showing a lot of faith in the law of averages there.
Do you really believe that at the end of the season the number of dubious decisions for and against every single one of the 92 is identical? Really? Seriously?

We get the same rough end of the stick as every other club? Seriously?
Whens the last time Chelsea had three goals that shouldn't have been allowed against them in the first half and their manager sent off at HT? Rad5 & Sky Sports & Talkshite said they were all wrong decisions within seconds. Even Shearer on MOTD agreed.
Whens the last time Man Utd had a goal allowed against them for a basketball style pat down that resulted in a goal then had their captain sent off for pointing out the error of the refs ways? Rad5 & Sky Sports & Talkshite said both decisions were wrong within seconds. Ditto a player "falling over a sprinkler" against Man Utd when no one was within six foot of him and a goal resulting from the free kick?

Only the PGMO or whatever its called believe the winning manager on the right side of a dubious goal bollocks that "decisions even themselves out over the course of the season"...........and that's only in public. Privately they know the same truth as everyone else.
 

Offsides should be scrapped. Also rip goals down and use jumpers. Hoy a bit dog shit on the pitch afor every game and allow auld Mildred to stroll across the pitch with her cross dog Rex.
 
You could be goalside of your marker and still be onside. It'd be farcical.
That's where semi-automated variable margin of error using previous frames to determine speed of players would come into play. Given what I've seen of the automated system they could easily do it as it tracks their position every 0.02 seconds. They can see in the frames around the frame of the ball being played if players are standing still, slightly moving, jogging or running full pelt.

From that they can get the crossing speed of the 2 players (even if going the same direction) and a simple calculation gives them a possible distance covered between frames. It's not rocket science as it's simple to implement as it's basic mathematics to work out. The margin of error increases with speed along the lines of braking distance when travelling at speed as it's the same thing. If they try to be precise again like they did when it first came in without any benefit of doubt for the attacker then it's a big mistake.

My thinking is that using that method means a player standing goal side of a marker on a free kick for example would always be offside as his previous position and speed compared to the defender wouldn't allow a big enough margin to cover his body width. It's physically impossible for someone to suddenly move around the side and in front of another player in 0.02 seconds.

The old system used to be better. Clear daylight, obvious offside. When you start looking at lines and sections of arms/legs/earholes..... you're gunna end up making mistakes.

VAR is a good thing, the problem is too often it's being used incorrectly.

Bit of a shame he's lost his job mind but it was a poor error.
As for mistakes, they could eliminate incorrectly called onside decisions by allowing all the margin of error in favour of the attacker. The only debatable decisions would be close onsides being given that could possibly have been offside. No method can ever be perfect and the linesman only method, although it's never going back to that, means it could go either way and far bigger an error than a toenail on occasion.

Even the semi-automated VAR isn't perfect if it's trying to determine the exact position without any error margin. It would have picked up on the offside Lee Mason missed as mentioned above and be a lot quicker as it wouldn't need reviewing in such detail like he did with the 1st offside.

I replied to the daylight thing earlier but it had me thinking as to how it would work. I don't think they can have a daylight rule as that means attackers could partially block defenders while having no daylight (they couldn't just stand fully in front of them as has already been picked up earlier in thread). Even if they did bring it in they would still need an offside line creating so they'd still have the error of margin to debate. Given the advantage of daylight then it could be giving a further advantage to the attacker with him being well offside yet being given onside. This is a basic example of the daylight rule using the current rule in the 1st image. You could have a player's trailing toe playing him onside against another player. The 2nd image is the using the torso as the line instead of body parts, still just offside here.

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Even as it is now, you'd have people pointing out that one player is leaning forwards and one backwards and where exactly do you look for daylight, the arse end or the nipple end of the torso? Plus if you factor in the margin of error and give it to the attacker to remove doubt then in reality there could be even more daylight between them given the margin of error is the probably already the thickness of a torso front to back.

VAR and the offside isn't going away so they need to make it as good and fair as possible. It will the automated system sorting offsides a lot quicker probably next season. For me, this system using the level rule plus the variable error margin depending on speed of players in favour of the attacker would be the lesser of all evils. That's because all the goals would only only be ruled out for 100% offsides. Watch us have a dogdy offside or decision against us today, though him in the blue looks rapid for a forward and I think he's a free agent so ger'im signed! 🤪
 
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You're showing a lot of faith in the law of averages there.
Do you really believe that at the end of the season the number of dubious decisions for and against every single one of the 92 is identical? Really? Seriously?

We get the same rough end of the stick as every other club? Seriously?
Whens the last time Chelsea had three goals that shouldn't have been allowed against them in the first half and their manager sent off at HT? Rad5 & Sky Sports & Talkshite said they were all wrong decisions within seconds. Even Shearer on MOTD agreed.
Whens the last time Man Utd had a goal allowed against them for a basketball style pat down that resulted in a goal then had their captain sent off for pointing out the error of the refs ways? Rad5 & Sky Sports & Talkshite said both decisions were wrong within seconds. Ditto a player "falling over a sprinkler" against Man Utd when no one was within six foot of him and a goal resulting from the free kick?

Only the PGMO or whatever its called believe the winning manager on the right side of a dubious goal bollocks that "decisions even themselves out over the course of the season"...........and that's only in public. Privately they know the same truth as everyone else.

Never said they would even themselves out, what I meant is we are just likely to get decisions for us as against us, in the sense that we no different from any other club.

Yet every single year since I came on this board a lot of our fans think we get the rough end of stick every season!

So much so they when we away to a big club apparently the ref favours that club, but when we the big club and big crowd refs are determined to stick up to the big crowd!!!

Heard and read it on here

We no different from any other club sometimes we may be lucky and get more decisions for us over a season and vice versa sometimes we won’t.

That’s what I meant, obviously it’s near enough impossible any decisions will even themselves out over a season, I agree
 
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Every forum up and down the land say the same pal. There's definitely some team out there getting all the decisions in their favour.

Exactly all biased fans of most clubs think they get the rough end of the stick over a season, which of course is impossible.

Sunderland are in championship and are treat no differently than any other club in our league imo.

We may be unlucky some weeks with decisions we may be lucky some other weeks
 
That's where semi-automated variable margin of error using previous frames to determine speed of players would come into play. Given what I've seen of the automated system they could easily do it as it tracks their position every 0.02 seconds. They can see in the frames around the frame of the ball being played if players are standing still, slightly moving, jogging or running full pelt.

From that they can get the crossing speed of the 2 players (even if going the same direction) and a simple calculation gives them a possible distance covered between frames. It's not rocket science as it's simple to implement as it's basic mathematics to work out. The margin of error increases with speed along the lines of braking distance when travelling at speed as it's the same thing. If they try to be precise again like they did when it first came in without any benefit of doubt for the attacker then it's a big mistake.

My thinking is that using that method means a player standing goal side of a marker on a free kick for example would always be offside as his previous position and speed compared to the defender wouldn't allow a big enough margin to cover his body width. It's physically impossible for someone to suddenly move around the side and in front of another player in 0.02 seconds.

As for mistakes, they could eliminate incorrectly called onside decisions by allowing all the margin of error in favour of the attacker. The only debatable decisions would be close onsides being given that could possibly have been offside. No method can ever be perfect and the linesman only method, although it's never going back to that, means it could go either way and far bigger an error than a toenail on occasion.

Even the semi-automated VAR isn't perfect if it's trying to determine the exact position without any error margin. It would have picked up on the offside Lee Mason missed as mentioned above and be a lot quicker as it wouldn't need reviewing in such detail like he did with the 1st offside.

I replied to the daylight thing earlier but it had me thinking as to how it would work. I don't think they can have a daylight rule as that means attackers could partially block defenders while having no daylight (they couldn't just stand fully in front of them as has already been picked up earlier in thread). Even if they did bring it in they would still need an offside line creating so they'd still have the error of margin to debate. Given the advantage of daylight then it could be giving a further advantage to the attacker with him being well offside yet being given onside. This is a basic example of the daylight rule using the current rule in the 1st image. You could have a player's trailing toe playing him onside against another player. The 2nd image is the using the torso as the line instead of body parts, still just offside here.

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Even as it is now, you'd have people pointing out that one player is leaning forwards and one backwards and where exactly do you look for daylight, the arse end or the nipple end of the torso? Plus if you factor in the margin of error and give it to the attacker to remove doubt then in reality there could be even more daylight between them given the margin of error is the probably already the thickness of a torso front to back.

VAR and the offside isn't going away so they need to make it as good and fair as possible. It will the automated system sorting offsides a lot quicker probably next season. For me, this system using the level rule plus the variable error margin depending on speed of players in favour of the attacker would be the lesser of all evils. That's because all the goals would only only be ruled out for 100% offsides. Watch us have a dogdy offside or decision against us today, though him in the blue looks rapid for a forward and I think he's a free agent so ger'im signed! 🤪

I think I get what you mean but I'm talking about lining up waiting for a dead ball situation. If I'm a striker I'm able to position myself goal side of the defender and still be onside as long as I'm touch tight or any part of my anatomy is overlapping the part of the defender nearest the goal. It'd wreak havoc with defendensive lines.
 
I think I get what you mean but I'm talking about lining up waiting for a dead ball situation. If I'm a striker I'm able to position myself goal side of the defender and still be onside as long as I'm touch tight or any part of my anatomy is overlapping the part of the defender nearest the goal. It'd wreak havoc with defendensive lines.
It can't be a fixed error margin as that means players who are standing still could do as you say. That's why it would have to be a variable margin of error based on player speed as players aren't really moving in that situation. It is very simple to calculate the speed as they have all the player data points from the frames and distance = speed x time.

Over a frame of 0.02 seconds, it's just over 5cm for every 10 km/h speed difference. A player would be around 25cm body width so the combined speed would need to be 50km/h. Given players at full pelt are running at just over 30km/h then it's impossible for an an attacker to stand in front of a defender as the speed would be far too slow. Even if the attacker starts a late run the margin would be summit like 10cm so it would be offside every time. Offsides that are called now as a player is leaning forward by a shoulder would now be allowed within that 10cm (or whatever it is to cover the frame rate). It's hard to explain concisely but it's a simple method to be honest and sounds more complicated than it is. Think of the stopping distance of a speeding car scale but only the braking distance (ignore thinking) as it's the exact same thing.
 
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Watch us have a dogdy offside or decision against us today, though him in the blue looks rapid for a forward and I think he's a free agent so ger'im signed! 🤪
f***ing typical I go and say something stupid like that yesterday lunchtime that I end up gif'ing as the penna should never have stood. It's nearly as bad as @Daz_3000 mentioning nee penna for Bristol City for ages!

There's no denying Hume initially puts his arm across Jay da Silva but da Silva then grabs Hume's arm so it's both of them at it and 'normal' footy tit for tat. The problem is that da Silva then blatantly pulls Hume's shirt down and you can see Hume's black neck line come over his shoulder! Hume has been pulled back and down and falls over but Hume stupidly then hoys his arms out and initially grabs da Silva's shorts (watch his left hand stop as he falls) and then clips da Silva's left foot so he drops like he's been shot!

To be fair to the ref, the pull is blind side and impossible to see and the lino is the other side of the pitch. VAR has other camera angles to look at but even with this single angle VAR would have taken it back to that point and therefore no penalty. I just hope those 2 points don't cost us come the end of the season and as some claim that the decisions even themselves out where we've gained 2 points due to a dodgy decision.


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f***ing typical I go and say something stupid like that yesterday lunchtime that I end up gif'ing as the penna should never have stood. It's nearly as bad as @Daz_3000 mentioning nee penna for Bristol City for ages!

There's no denying Hume initially puts his arm across Jay da Silva but da Silva then grabs Hume's arm so it's both of them at it and 'normal' footy tit for tat. The problem is that da Silva then blatantly pulls Hume's shirt down and you can see Hume's black neck line come over his shoulder! Hume has been pulled back and down and falls over but Hume stupidly then hoys his arms out and initially grabs da Silva's shorts (watch his left hand stop as he falls) and then clips da Silva's left foot so he drops like he's been shot!

To be fair to the ref, the pull is blind side and impossible to see and the lino is the other side of the pitch. VAR has other camera angles to look at but even with this single angle VAR would have taken it back to that point and therefore no penalty. I just hope those 2 points don't cost us come the end of the season and as some claim that the decisions even themselves out where we've gained 2 points due to a dodgy decision.


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Ref
Should be fined imo for decisions like this lose a % of their match fee.

Does this happen or is there a chance they will get demoted to be back soon enough in the same league.
 
Ref
Should be fined imo for decisions like this lose a % of their match fee.

Does this happen or is there a chance they will get demoted to be back soon enough in the same league.
Nah I completely disagree as you've got to look at the image to see the ref's view of it all. There's no way the ref can see that pull as it's completely out of view. It's understandable why he thought it was a penna as all he will have seen is Hume losing his balance and then grabbing out while falling.

My point is given this is a VAR related thread that this is the exact reason VAR is being used. A ref cannot see shite like this from their one unique viewing angle but you will still have fans calling it out as the ref being incompetent like you just have. If the Premier League went back to no VAR there would be hell on every week over decisions like this that are nailed on to have been reversed, rather than the few debatable ones which could go either way. Aye Lee Mason fucked up but the semi-automated stuff will get rid of that issue.

Would fans really prefer to leave decisions like this to the ref alone and hope the even out over the season? What if they don't and we miss out on the play offs by 2 points given we would have probably won the game yesterday with VAR?

I cropped the 1st gif and didn't show where Hume clearly grabs da Silva's hips (you see his hand clearly as it stops on way down) and then gets his foot (again clear on a frame as not moving) so a penna all day long as intent is there. The ref will have clearly seen this so you can understand why he's given the penna, The worst part is they didn't even score from it and I wish player's would think before the do shit like this. Just think "If I foul him here will the penna be an easier chance for them to score" and the simple answer here all the time during that was yes a penna is easier!

Before anyone claims Hume barely touched him, which is correct, it's the intent to trip the opponent which again the ref will have clearly seen. Very stupid from Hume to gift them a penna so late in the game as da Silva didn't have a direct shot on goal but the penna gave them that!

Direct Free Kick
A direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any of the following seven offences in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:
  • Kicks or attempts to kick an opponent
  • Trips or attempts to trip an opponent

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Ref
Should be fined imo for decisions like this lose a % of their match fee.

Does this happen or is there a chance they will get demoted to be back soon enough in the same league.

Fined!!

I am sure getting fined for honest mistakes, will make new refs want to take up the game!!

I am never surprised what I read on here
 
how has VAR not sent sabitzer off there? he goes in sideways studs showing straight onto the lads knee, miles away from the ball. looks in real time that he's actaully trying to do his knee in.
 
Fined!!

I am sure getting fined for honest mistakes, will make new refs want to take up the game!!

I am never surprised what I read on here
In my line of work honest mistakes are punished by fined, why should refs not. I’m not on about. New referees should be helped obviously.

Let’s say we lose out on playoffs for 2 points football is a business at the end of the day mistakes cost ££ and in som cases jobs.

The top leagues need help and it’s clear video refs are helping hope it drops to the championship.

I do get your point, however I know you won’t get mine as I’m sure your a bird who can’t be wrong 😂
Nah I completely disagree as you've got to look at the image to see the ref's view of it all. There's no way the ref can see that pull as it's completely out of view. It's understandable why he thought it was a penna as all he will have seen is Hume losing his balance and then grabbing out while falling.

My point is given this is a VAR related thread that this is the exact reason VAR is being used. A ref cannot see shite like this from their one unique viewing angle but you will still have fans calling it out as the ref being incompetent like you just have. If the Premier League went back to no VAR there would be hell on every week over decisions like this that are nailed on to have been reversed, rather than the few debatable ones which could go either way. Aye Lee Mason fucked up but the semi-automated stuff will get rid of that issue.

Would fans really prefer to leave decisions like this to the ref alone and hope the even out over the season? What if they don't and we miss out on the play offs by 2 points given we would have probably won the game yesterday with VAR?

I cropped the 1st gif and didn't show where Hume clearly grabs da Silva's hips (you see his hand clearly as it stops on way down) and then gets his foot (again clear on a frame as not moving) so a penna all day long as intent is there. The ref will have clearly seen this so you can understand why he's given the penna, The worst part is they didn't even score from it and I wish player's would think before the do shit like this. Just think "If I foul him here will the penna be an easier chance for them to score" and the simple answer here all the time during that was yes a penna is easier!

Before anyone claims Hume barely touched him, which is correct, it's the intent to trip the opponent which again the ref will have clearly seen. Very stupid from Hume to gift them a penna so late in the game as da Silva didn't have a direct shot on goal but the penna gave them that!

Direct Free Kick
A direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any of the following seven offences in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:
  • Kicks or attempts to kick an opponent
  • Trips or attempts to trip an opponent

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Aye video reffing would have overturned this (or would it).

I stand by that Refs who make awful decisions, and it does happen should be fined.

Football is a business at the end of the day and poor decisions could cost money.

I’m not saying fine every f for every decision as honest mistakes do happen but so does bias and ego.

Pro Refs are better in
Rugby
Cricket
(Who both use their video systems good)

Sooner football has it in all games the better having it partial but not fully covered doesn’t help as VAR has changed how the fan thinks.

Years ago the ref made a mistake you see 1-2 angels and maybe a replay now you see every angle and a replay and fans will use that.

Two strange decisions in the man United game today from VAR also the rashford goal (offside) and the Leicester (potential red card)
** man United red sorry.
 
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The top leagues need help and it’s clear video refs are helping hope it drops to the championship.
VAR basic will be coming to the Championship soon. There won't be extra cameras but they will review footage and in this case yesterday probably would have seen the pull foul before the penna foul and therefore we'd have got a free kick!


The EFL is still discussing the practicalities of introducing a "VAR-light" system but hopes to introduce the low-cost alternative for the start of next season.

Compared to what's used in the Premier League, the EFL technology would incorporate fewer cameras, and therefore be cheaper.


It would not include cameras to assess offside decisions, for example, but would allow referees to review contentious incidents.

Years ago the ref made a mistake you see 1-2 angels and maybe a replay now you see every angle and a replay and fans will use that.

Two strange decisions in the man United game today from VAR also the rashford goal (offside) and the Leicester (potential red card)
This is a great point rarely raised as it's too easy to be an armchair ref. As for the Rashford offside, look HERE to see how it's not as close or strange as you think when you consider how it all works.
 
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In my line of work honest mistakes are punished by fined, why should refs not. I’m not on about. New referees should be helped obviously.

Let’s say we lose out on playoffs for 2 points football is a business at the end of the day mistakes cost ££ and in som cases jobs.

The top leagues need help and it’s clear video refs are helping hope it drops to the championship.

I do get your point, however I know you won’t get mine as I’m sure your a bird who can’t be wrong 😂

Aye video reffing would have overturned this (or would it).

I stand by that Refs who make awful decisions, and it does happen should be fined.

Football is a business at the end of the day and poor decisions could cost money.

I’m not saying fine every f for every decision as honest mistakes do happen but so does bias and ego.

Pro Refs are better in
Rugby
Cricket
(Who both use their video systems good)

Sooner football has it in all games the better having it partial but not fully covered doesn’t help as VAR has changed how the fan thinks.

Years ago the ref made a mistake you see 1-2 angels and maybe a replay now you see every angle and a replay and fans will use that.

Two strange decisions in the man United game today from VAR also the rashford goal (offside) and the Leicester (potential red card)
** man United red sorry.

The reason honest mistakes should not be fined, is all known evidence year after year prove it is difficult very difficult to get decisions right in real time.

It is absolutely inevitable and to fine someone for something that is inevitable and totally understandable is totally counterproductive.

You would not fine a goalkeeper or a forward for making honest mistakes.

The key point here is real time to fine someone making a mistake in real time with respect is ridiculous imo.

After VAR and several replays have less sympathy for mistakes.
If historically you already know loads of mistakes are made in real time you help
people with everything you can that’s why you right VAR needed in the championship the last thing you do is suddenly fine somebody for something you know is going to happen and has for the history of football
 
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