For all those dead against more lockdowns



Porters right boot said:
I keep hearing that the Sweden action hasn’t been a success...they have a higher death rate than other Nordic countries who did lock down....Swedish government are saying they regret how they have handle things and their number of cases are rising rapidly....Maybe the effect on their economy has not been as bad as other countries
UK have made mistakes there’s no doubt about that but this has been a once in a generation event and brought about by external sources...it’s difficult to know which was the corr3ct way to handle things
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I think they had a higher death rate from COVID than other Nordic countries - but excess deaths from all causes werent any worse.

I don’t think the effects of locking down, cutting off support networks, making people afraid to seek medical help, limiting face to face consultations is being fully considered.

We are having about 20 COVID related deaths a day atm, but hundreds a week excess deaths at home from all causes according to ONS:

Deaths registered weekly in England and Wales, provisional - Office for National Statistics

Provisional counts of the number of deaths registered in England and Wales, including deaths involving the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic, by age, sex and region.
www.ons.gov.uk

In Week 34, deaths in hospitals, care homes and other locations were below the five-year average by 300, 1 and 51 deaths respectively, while the number of deaths in private homes continued to be above the five-average, with 825 excess deaths (Figure 5).

Of course stats like that don’t give our new class of corona celebs a chance to add to their new found fame and fortunes, so who cares?
 
42 said:
They also found that about 30% of the population who didn't have antibodies but did have the t-cells which fight the virus. So if about half the population have either antibodies or t-cells, then they're not too far away from achieving herd immunity.

Also despite the increased infection rates, they aren't shooting up in London or NY despite the high population density
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If only if it was as simple as this. The truth is immunity against Covid 19 is very complex and currently poorly understood. We can measure antibodies and T cell reactivity but still don't know what this means for protection against future infection and if so how long any protection might last. Studies using blood samples collected before the pandemic show t-cell reactivity to covid 19 of between 10 and 50% possibly due to infection from other corona viruses but we don't know if this confers any protection to the current virus. This means that being able to measure covid reacting t-cells in populations such as Sweden or New York does not tell us if this was a result of recent exposure to covid 19 or previous corona viruses and neither does it tell us that people have any level of immunity and if so how much. We simply don't know.
www.newscientist.com

What are T-cells and why have they become a political football?

T-cells are a key part of our immune system, but some say they have been overlooked during the coronavirus pandemic
www.newscientist.com www.newscientist.com
 
squavers said:
New Zealand may have been helped by being an island situated more than two and a half thousand miles away from any other living person. I don't know, I haven't looked at it at all. I have found in my research though that comparing individual countries doesn't make much sense. New Zealand did have a strict lockdown and have done very well, but Peru had an even stricter lockdown, military-style with closed borders, and the longest and strictest in the world. Where are they in the deaths-per-capita table? Top, and by some way. Using the same logic that you are applying to New Zealand, doesn't that prove that strict lockdowns don't work? Well no, because there are a multitude of other factors at play here.

But regarding comparing Sweden and New Zealand, you're analysing it the wrong way. People are looking at the graphs and seeing that the curves started to flatten shortly after lockdowns were imposed, and automatically assuming that it was the lockdown that was the reason. That's a perfectly logical way of thinking, but the problem with this is that on just about all the various countries graphs, regardless of how strict or lax their lockdown was, the virus appears to follow a Gompertz curve, which correctly anticipates the virus fizzling out after an initial rapid upsurge before plateauing and then easing off. This strongly suggests that strict lockdown was not absolutely necessary and that the end result would have been the same with just basic social distancing and avoidance of large gatherings.

Either strict lockdown was vital and essential or it wasn't. The New Zealand success story proves neither, as it can be argued that the same result could have been achieved with a more relaxed lockdown. The Sweden success story however, does prove that a strict lockdown was not vital and essential, as they achieved this without one.
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I don’t think I’ve ever said that lockdown was essential. It’s hard to determine if it is or isn’t depending on how much a reduction of deaths you deem ”vital and essential”.

I can see where you’re coming from but as you mentioned yourself, there’s a multitude of factors at play. If Sweden imposed a lockdown and seen far less deaths along with the reduced cases currently then that would have been the better way to go. We don’t know if it’s the lesser restrictions that have caused their reduced cases now or something else, just like you’re trying to think of examples to explain why New Zealand have got less cases now.

As for why Sweden’s cases eventually stagnated, this could possibly be due to the restrictions that they did have in place, while lesser they were still there.

If an early and strict lockdown reduced Sweden’s deaths by 50% would that be vital and essential to you?

A single country is no where near enough evidence to state “A lockdown was not vital and essential”. If it was, surely every single country in the world would drop their lockdowns instantly?
 
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mackemquaker said:
They simply shut down their country to the rest of of the world. Nothing fancy or clever. Something impossible for European countries to do. New Zealand doesnt have thousands of HGV's driving into it each day with food like Europe does. They also just announced that there economy sank by 12% in the 2nd quarter of year. They will have no tourism for the forseeable future.
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Germany has all that and more, a larger population than ours, major airports and they’re bordered on all sides by main roads, ferries, rail and people on f***ing pushbikes, and they had a fraction of the deaths we’ve had.
 
lurker said:
Germany has all that and more, a larger population than ours, major airports and they’re bordered on all sides by main roads, ferries, rail and people on f***ing pushbikes, and they had a fraction of the deaths we’ve had.
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Germany deaths: 9386
Germany population: 83 million

Sweden deaths: 5865
Sweden population: 10 million

Germany is another country that gets forgotten about when people praise Sweden.
 
The Master said:
Germany deaths: 9386
Germany population: 83 million

Sweden deaths: 5865
Sweden population: 10 million

Germany is another country that gets forgotten about when people praise Sweden.
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They’ll all probably just accuse Germany of lying. f***ing idiots.

I work with some Germans at the minute and they’re all back in the offices, shops and factories working full tilt, whilst our country limps along thanks to Boris the tit.
 
The Germans have always had a greater work ethic than the UK...only a few months ago the owner of Pimlico Plumbing was saying how difficult it was to get his staff back to work....too many people treated furlough as a holiday..people have a pop at Boris but some are first in the queue when it comes to cycle repair vouchers,home improvement grants,the eat out scheme...owt for nowt mentality...too many people have got used to being at home and will try to keep it that way by passing the buck to Boris
 
Porters right boot said:
Didn’t NZ lockdown very quickly at the start...closed their borders which is probably quite easy to do..they seemed to imp let emend track and trace for those that did enter the country because I remember a couple of brits were allowed into the country on compassionate reasons an& they both had th3 virus,they were tracked down and isolayed immediately,didnt they miss the funeral that they had been allowed in for....im not sure if their borders are open yet....think their inhabitants have more respect for their country than some of the inhabitants of the UK
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NZ boarders are still closed. the head of air NZ has just said that he can't see a travel bubble between NZ and Oz until at least March next year. many were hoping that would be much sooner.

NZ also has a few cases where they can't work out how/when or who they were transmitted, which is a worry for them.
 

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