Even Gooch says we need to adjust the model

sir rowell cummins said:
I like Gooch. He’s right we’ve missed a bit of leadership and experience but some of his examples aren’t right. Hume needed to be be playing this year but arguably was second best behind Huggins who was class. Pembele was a third option. Sad to lose his personality and physicality but Gooch got mullered against us and may not have played had Huggins not got injured. We also replaced Baath with an experienced player in 09. I’d say the Evans position needed sorting and a better quality striker.
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And theres another problem. Signing a 3rd choice full back on a 5 year deal who still cant get a game when we have non defenders fit
 


sir rowell cummins said:
I like Gooch. He’s right we’ve missed a bit of leadership and experience but some of his examples aren’t right. Hume needed to be be playing this year but arguably was second best behind Huggins who was class. Pembele was a third option. Sad to lose his personality and physicality but Gooch got mullered against us and may not have played had Huggins not got injured. We also replaced Baath with an experienced player in 09. I’d say the Evans position needed sorting and a better quality striker.
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I think regarding Gooch we have to remember that whilst, he is an average championship player- we haven't replaced him with anythnig better, since he's gone.
We didn't really replace Baath with O'Nien either because he was already our third choice CB- So instead we brought in Triantis and Seelt, neither of whom have been adequate in replacing our third choice CB in O'Nien as well as our 4th choice FB and 4th choice CM.

I think in general we have to take account of the whole squad- the club obviously see older players as being a drain on resources- withe the potentially misguided idea that yuong players will intrinsically increase in value.

However- the ability to rely on players like Gooch and Baath and Pritchard would have been useful this season- especially with Roberts out- as it would have meant not having to rely on Ba all the time and then Mundle- who both probably arent ready for regular starts.
With Baath as well- I honestly think a lot of our loses this last few months could have been draws with a bit more savvy/quality back up (we went thorugh a similar spell last season where we were struggling to score more than one but we were drawing most games- January/Feb time)- the same sort of games we are losing by one or two goals now
 
Mackemansj1 said:
Like he says though it makes everything else harder when they had experience there to fall back on so all they had to do was to focus on themselves. Now we've got basically onien as the stand out experience in the squad so those young lads like he says need to add taking on that role to the even younger lads we've now got filling the squad out. People say but Neil has X amount of games etc he may have but he's still a young lad and being a leader might not be his thing. It's criminal how we've shot ourselves in the foot like this, the infamous you can't win owt with kids thing you look at that team it was absolutely packed with players older, leaders and with massive experience. Compare that to our team the one where we have had the four youngest starting sides this season and our u21s had an older starting age than our first team. It's about balance and we've completely borked it.
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Balance has been wrong this year. But the likes of Ballard, Neil will benefit I feel
 
sir rowell cummins said:
I like Gooch. He’s right we’ve missed a bit of leadership and experience but some of his examples aren’t right. Hume needed to be be playing this year but arguably was second best behind Huggins who was class. Pembele was a third option. Sad to lose his personality and physicality but Gooch got mullered against us and may not have played had Huggins not got injured. We also replaced Baath with an experienced player in 09. I’d say the Evans position needed sorting and a better quality striker.
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Don't agree with that mate. I really don't get the hype around Huggins - not to say I don't rate him as a player - but prior to this season he'd played a grand total of 3 league games in two years (4 in his entire career at the age of 22), all at left back. His injury record is horrific, which isn't his fault but does mean he can't be relied on. Any games we get out of him have to be considered a bonus until he can prove his fitness over a consistent period of time and unfortunately he has missed the majority of this season again, albeit due to a really awful injury. Selling a player because you have someone who averages 1-2 games a season ahead of him is terrible business.

Then we have his replacement, Pembele, who was recovering from an ACL at the time he signed and wasn't available to play until late December, has looked dreadful when he has played, is now 4th choice right back behind an out of position centre back and still yet to start.

Gooch covered LB too which is another problem position - we had two left backs who both missed chunks last season with injuries, Alese wasn't fit until January and have subsequently had to buy Hjelde who a) looks rubbish, and b) reportedly cost £2m.

Whether Gooch was good enough to start regularly or whether he was the long term answer is irrelevant, he was under contract on a fairly low wage, loves the club and happy to sit on the bench as cover, would have done a much better job than what we ended up with and cost less. That's before you even get to the perfectly valid points he made about personality and influence on the dressing room.

By all accounts he's done well and is really popular at Stoke, we're only judging him on his performance against one of the best players in the league in Clarke. He didn't get mullered when he played 33 games for us last season, he looked relatively solid and dependable if unspectacular and only lost his place through injury then couldn't get back in because of Hume's good form.
 
Definitely Maybe said:
Don't agree with that mate. I really don't get the hype around Huggins - not to say I don't rate him as a player - but prior to this season he'd played a grand total of 3 league games in two years (4 in his entire career at the age of 22), all at left back. His injury record is horrific, which isn't his fault but does mean he can't be relied on. Any games we get out of him have to be considered a bonus until he can prove his fitness over a consistent period of time and unfortunately he has missed the majority of this season again, albeit due to a really awful injury. Selling a player because you have someone who averages 1-2 games a season ahead of him is terrible business.

Then we have his replacement, Pembele, who was recovering from an ACL at the time he signed and wasn't available to play until late December, has looked dreadful when he has played, is now 4th choice right back behind an out of position centre back and still yet to start.

Gooch covered LB too which is another problem position - we had two left backs who both missed chunks last season with injuries, Alese wasn't fit until January and have subsequently had to buy Hjelde who a) looks rubbish, and b) reportedly cost £2m.

Whether Gooch was good enough to start regularly or whether he was the long term answer is irrelevant, he was under contract on a fairly low wage, loves the club and happy to sit on the bench as cover, would have done a much better job than what we ended up with and cost less. That's before you even get to the perfectly valid points he made about personality and influence on the dressing room.

By all accounts he's done well and is really popular at Stoke, we're only judging him on his performance against one of the best players in the league in Clarke. He didn't get mullered when he played 33 games for us last season, he looked relatively solid and dependable if unspectacular and only lost his place through injury then couldn't get back in because of Hume's good form.
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I think Huggins before his injury was one of our best three players
 
The Rolls Royce said:
Experience isn't just down to games played.

It's through experiencing everything. Going through changes of manager, relegation fights, promotion battles, dealing with injuries, adjusting to changes in the team/playing staff.

There's loads of different situations physically and mentally that footballers deal with.
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Problem is Speakman is a bit of a fraud with no real understanding of people beyond manipulation.
Leaving the bairns to learn on the job is a flawed educational concept
Vygotsky nailed it with Zone of Proximal Learning
“the distance between the actual developmental level as determined by independent problem solving and the level of potential development as determined through problem-solving under adult guidance, or in collaboration with more capable peers” (Vygotsky, 1978, p. 86).
This is why we have got no better , Gooch is right in principal if not detail ( Stewart etc)
 
Of course we need more experience in the squad. That's blatantly obvious.

Selling Stewart with a serious injury for £10m was the right thing to do though. The issue is how the money has been spent / the replacements selected.

As for Gooch, he's not good enough to be anything other than a bit part player for us at fullback and wouldn't get a game at all in his preferred position as a winger. He could be considered a victim of the model in some regards, but in reality he's a victim of a club that progressed beyond his ability.
 
Dash riprock said:
Problem is Speakman is a bit of a fraud with no real understanding of people beyond manipulation.
Leaving the bairns to learn on the job is a flawed educational concept
Vygotsky nailed it with Zone of Proximal Learning
“the distance between the actual developmental level as determined by independent problem solving and the level of potential development as determined through problem-solving under adult guidance, or in collaboration with more capable peers” (Vygotsky, 1978, p. 86).
This is why we have got no better , Gooch is right in principal if not detail ( Stewart etc)
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Having said that it's a principle that applies primarily to children and recognises the benefit of individual and personal development under the tutelage of personal coaches. As a club we claim to have this in place in spades. What we appear to lack are the tactical skills required by adults engaged in team based activities.
 
Hongkongphooey said:
The reason we are struggling this season is down to bad luck, yes that has been repeatedly posted on here :lol:
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It's entirely possible. However, what we need to investigate is our approach to general fitness and box ticking our signings in terms of previous injury problems, the effectiveness of our medical staff in terms of assessing potential problems. What we can't do is rule out how difficult it is to suffer so many injuries without penalty in terms of team performance.
 
CraigyWatt said:
Of course we need more experience in the squad. That's blatantly obvious.

Selling Stewart with a serious injury for £10m was the right thing to do though. The issue is how the money has been spent / the replacements selected.

As for Gooch, he's not good enough to be anything other than a bit part player for us at fullback and wouldn't get a game at all in his preferred position as a winger. He could be considered a victim of the model in some regards, but in reality he's a victim of a club that progressed beyond his ability.
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He'd walk into this team ahead of Ba, Bennette, Aouchiche, Dack, Mundle...
We'd best peddle all of them then...oh wait.🤔
 
---Nemo--- said:
Having said that it's a principle that applies primarily to children and recognises the benefit of individual and personal development under the tutelage of personal coaches. As a club we claim to have this in place in spades. What we appear to lack are the tactical skills required by adults engaged in team based activities.
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It is but i think the learning needs to be mentored through to effective execution, in real time, in games . Not just the technical or tactical aspects of the game but the deeper attitudes under real pressure. Someone on field needs to help build real learning of how to come through, to " play up and play the game ".
I think Gooch is right , theyre all kids and they need a house master on the pitch ,all theyre learning at present is panic and it can become a habit, not something you grow out of naturally .
Can you ' teach' calm or determination? I dont know but you can certainly model and demand it
 
I advocated for Gooch to play RB back in league one well before we did, but it was definitely the right decision to let him him go.

The issue was that Huggins, Cirkin and Aji have all suffered long-term injuries. It has allowed Hume to gain the experience everyone says we should have brought in.

The season has been a failure due to the strikers and the set-up we adopted early in the season to service them.

The experience these young lads will have gained from this will be invaluable.

Massive summer for KLD, KS and SH.
 
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