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England batting

SuperMarcoRowell

SuperMarcoRowell

Midfield
The worst England test line up I’ve seen.
I was looking at the 90/91 series the other day because that was a pretty disastrous tour but we had Atherton, Gooch, Larkins, Stewart, R Smith, Gower. Compare that to now!
Root is superb of course but Stokes apart there is no one else able to put a score together.
The great thing about cricket is that batting and bowling are equally as important, even if you have a great bowling line up without the runs you have no chance.
And if you have a great batting line up but can’t take twenty wickets you don’t win.
This problem has been coming for a couple of years and I don’t see a solution, sadly.
 

You get both with Stokes, he's capable of just hanging about like a nuisance and properly dig in (his attitude this series so far has been very good considering he's half fit and had mental health issues), or he can quickly take a game away from the opponent. Root is as we know world class batsman. Malan not too bad, but the rest with the red ball are an absolute disgrace to be honest, absolutely nothing about them at all with the bat. It's absolutely shameful what is happening and what will continue to happen, easy to spot many years ago as I shared such concerns and observations on here numerous times.
 
You can even pick faults at our few actual decent players too, that’s the sad reality. Root gets out at really frustrating times and Stokes’ average is shocking for someone so talented. Malan has some obvious flaws against spin but is still easily our third best batting option. For this reason I do think the issue as at least partly due to coaching of the players, as you could say even our best players are underachieving. Don’t take this wrong I’m not having a dig in any way, but just think the fault is more than just the obvious batsmen who can’t hold a bat between them.

Even our lower order batting has stopped performing - used to be able to rely on them to put on 100 between them and save our blushes somewhat but they’ve tailed off badly recently.

Same with our fielding - we have some good fieldsmen in the team who are dropping catches regularly too.

I think it looks like something more fundamentally wrong. But it could just be demoralisation from having to bat with people like burns, hameed, pope and Buttler.
 
Stokes’ capabilities far outweigh his consistent performances. However, he is still outstandingly good and in more recent times has been quality. Haven’t seen stats but surely his average over the past 3 years is more of an indication of his current ability rather than when he first played?
 
kenny said:
Stokes’ capabilities far outweigh his consistent performances. However, he is still outstandingly good and in more recent times has been quality. Haven’t seen stats but surely his average over the past 3 years is more of an indication of his current ability rather than when he first played?
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Believe it is 41 with the bat since 2019
 
It's amazing to think that we have one of our best batsmen ever and best all-rounders ever and it's still so poor. What is all the more worrying is that players with fairly moderate records over a long period of time have played so many games. Burns, Bairstow and Buttler have played over 160 tests combined which shows the weakness overall.

This certainly seems the weakest in my lifetime. Even in the grim days of the mid-late 90's, you could count on one of Atherton, Stewart, Thorpe or even Hussain to score runs.

The late 80's may give this team a run for it's money, only Gooch consistently scored runs but no real surprise when Moxon, Athey, Robinson, Broad etc were our options at the top of the order.
 
The Breen Machine said:
It's amazing to think that we have one of our best batsmen ever and best all-rounders ever and it's still so poor. What is all the more worrying is that players with fairly moderate records over a long period of time have played so many games. Burns, Bairstow and Buttler have played over 160 tests combined which shows the weakness overall.

This certainly seems the weakest in my lifetime. Even in the grim days of the mid-late 90's, you could count on one of Atherton, Stewart, Thorpe or even Hussain to score runs.

The late 80's may give this team a run for it's money, only Gooch consistently scored runs but no real surprise when Moxon, Athey, Robinson, Broad etc were our options at the top of the order.
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Sorry but I just wanna pick up on the keeper point, their average is fine, I dunnp what people expect keepers at number 7 to average,but its pretty much that

people were spoilt by Prior, averaging 40 isnt normal for someone batting 7

the issue is the top order, not the number 7

i
 
The Rat said:
Sorry but I just wanna pick up on the keeper point, their average is fine, I dunnp what people expect keepers at number 7 to average,but its pretty much that

people were spoilt by Prior, averaging 40 isnt normal for someone batting 7

the issue is the top order, not the number 7

i
Click to expand...

I don't necessarily disagree but Bairstow in particular will have played plenty games as a front line batsman.

Interesting to compare with some other keepers in the same era

De Kock - 39
Rizwan - 42.1
Watling - 37.5
Pant - 39.7
Rahim - 37.1
Buttler - 32.8

There is a case that Buttler should be averaging a little higher but I accept your point that the 40+ averages are rare in a keeper.
 
The Breen Machine said:
I don't necessarily disagree but Bairstow in particular will have played plenty games as a front line batsman.

Interesting to compare with some other keepers in the same era

De Kock - 39
Rizwan - 42.1
Watling - 37.5
Pant - 39.7
Rahim - 37.1
Buttler - 32.8

There is a case that Buttler should be averaging a little higher but I accept your point that the 40+ averages are rare in a keeper.
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Bairstows average at 7 is decent to be fair, he is better than Buttler, and even on the Buttler, he played a lot without the gloves when he shouldnt have so his average is brought down by that too.

I accept your point to a degree though, but I just dont think its a pressing issue, its worth noting that most of those teams have better top orders than ours.

Bairstow is by far the best keeper batsman in the country, he should never have been moved, he isn't a consistent top order batsman, and we have wasted 3 years of his career, I was saying this when they first brought Buttler back!

the top 6 is the issue, well the top 3.

All roads lead there!
 
The Rat said:
Bairstows average at 7 is decent to be fair, he is better than Buttler, and even on the Buttler, he played a lot without the gloves when he shouldnt have

I accept your point to a degree, but I just dont think its a pressing issue, its worth noting that most of those teams have better top orders than ours.

Bairstow is by far the best keeper batsman in the country, he should never have been moved, he isn't a consistent top order batsman, and we have wasted 3 years of his career, I was saying this when they first brought Buttler back!
Click to expand...

Agree - it's probably the least of our issues at the moment. Buttler hasn't been great with bat and gloves so far this series, but he's the type you want coming in at 300/5, not 100/5, and his form in the last 2 years has generally been good.
 
The Breen Machine said:
Agree - it's probably the least of our issues at the moment. Buttler hasn't been great with bat and gloves so far this series, but he's the type you want coming in at 300/5, not 100/5, and his form in the last 2 years has generally been good.
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Thats it, he doesnt get in my XI, but I think people are naive if they think we will have people averaging loads more, no matter who is selected, unless our top order score runs.
 
SuperMarcoRowell said:
The worst England test line up I’ve seen.
I was looking at the 90/91 series the other day because that was a pretty disastrous tour but we had Atherton, Gooch, Larkins, Stewart, R Smith, Gower. Compare that to now!
Root is superb of course but Stokes apart there is no one else able to put a score together.
The great thing about cricket is that batting and bowling are equally as important, even if you have a great bowling line up without the runs you have no chance.
And if you have a great batting line up but can’t take twenty wickets you don’t win.
This problem has been coming for a couple of years and I don’t see a solution, sadly.
Click to expand...
Spot on. We never had a hope in hell over here this series to be honest. Our bowling attack can get us out of trouble on bowling friendly pitches at home but as soon as we get on decent batting pitches where you need 600+ runs to be competitive we just don't have enough batting talent to get this anywhere near consistently enough. The averages of that top 6 tells its own story.
 
The Rat said:
Bairstows average at 7 is decent to be fair, he is better than Buttler, and even on the Buttler, he played a lot without the gloves when he shouldnt have so his average is brought down by that too.

I accept your point to a degree though, but I just dont think its a pressing issue, its worth noting that most of those teams have better top orders than ours.

Bairstow is by far the best keeper batsman in the country, he should never have been moved, he isn't a consistent top order batsman, and we have wasted 3 years of his career, I was saying this when they first brought Buttler back!

the top 6 is the issue, well the top 3.

All roads lead there!
Click to expand...
Buttler would probably average better if the top order didnt keep collapsing. look at the aussies first innings this last time out..those late order batsmen could fire away against a tired blowing attack with little pressure on them. When a number 6 or 7 comes in with 100 - 130 on the board (as it often is with this England team) it's a different game than if its 300-350. Sort out the top order and the rest will look after itself more or less.
 
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