Ellis Short

[Thomas Hearns]

You can fool the public some of the time but not all of the time, I think this season even the pro Ellis Short supporters are finally waking up to his goals for the football club.

I imagine he will be concerned about Relegation and lots of empty seats

 

[sksk3021]

My point was we've spent a hell of a lot more money than Stoke and yet they've consistently finished mid table.

We on the other hand are always struggling.

That depends how you measure spend. Net spend will be pretty similar between the two. Hard to argue they have spent better.

 

[THE_MAINSTAND_BAND]

I didn't say you didn't say it was unachievable did I?



The buck stops with him I'm afraid. On paper we should be turning over teams like Palace but they made light work of us yesterday. Our mentality is so fragile that if we concede one goal then it's game over.

Which isnt the owners fault!

 

[sksk3021]

You can fool the public some of the time but not all of the time, I think this season even the pro Ellis Short supporters are finally waking up to his goals for the football club.

I imagine he will be concerned about Relegation and lots of empty seats

Who isn't concerned about relegation and empty seats?

 

[Thomas Hearns]

Who isn't concerned about relegation and empty seats?

People who don't like the way the club is being run or the people who are running it

 

[sksk3021]

People who don't like the way the club is being run or the people who are running it

You have lost me now.

 

[Lord Alfred]

Yes but it comes across like children stamping their feet. - don't mean you. What will you do about it? Just keep stamping your feet. As I've said before Short has presided over part of our longest period of top flight football for over 50 years. He must be doing something right. It's at this point that someone says - we were just lucky to stay up.

We've signed something like 26 players since the summer of 2013......being really honest how many of those have been good signings. It's a cumulative thing and it looks as though the poor decision making will eventually catch up with us. To be fair mate, he's not really doing anything right and being honest there's a reason for that.....he knows little about football and it's idiosyncrasies and he's been ill advised by those he's chose to put his trust in. It's like Bob Murray ringing Howard Wilkinson up and asking for a recommendation for a new manager to replace Reid.....we all know what happened subsequently. Bad decisions on the back of poor advice.

 

[gipetto]

Which isnt the owners fault!

The owner appoints the staff who make the decisions. It is ultimately his responsibility.

 

[10 Gary Rowells]

We've signed something like 26 players since the summer of 2013......being really honest how many of those have been good signings. It's a cumulative thing and it looks as though the poor decision making will eventually catch up with us. To be fair mate, he's not really doing anything right and being honest there's a reason for that.....he knows little about football and it's idiosyncrasies and he's been ill advised by those he's chose to put his trust in. It's like Bob Murray ringing Howard Wilkinson up and asking for a recommendation for a new manager to replace Reid.....we all know what happened subsequently. Bad decisions on the back of poor advice.

We've followed the same model for the last 50 odd years - get new manager, spend money, sack manager - to no success. We did that spectacularly with Bruce and MON - spending millions for no success. He has decided that he wants to try a different route - I understand and agree with that. He wants to try to replicate the Swansea and Southampton model - that seems very sensible - get a footballing identity and set the youth system and scouting system to fit this where managers can be interchangeable without completely changing the direction of the club. He had a massive false start with Di Fanti but then appointed Congerton - an experienced man for this type of role. He's been in less than a year and people have decided he's rubbish, they think he's just a head scout. It will take a lot longer than one year to get success from this model - that doesn't make it the wrong thing to do. The other alternative is appoint Allardyce - chuck money at it to get the type of player he needs and repeat the mistakes of the last 50 years.

It may not work but then again precious little has in my 40 years of attending. Personally I'm happy that I can at least understand what the plan is and can see the logic in it. I would imagine that you would have had the red card up when people wanted Murray out. History proved Murray right - the SOL and the AOL have created the platform that may ultimately bring some sustainable success.

 

[GordonMuchallNo1Fan]

We stayed up last year through an absolute miracle - in the words of our manager. So what did the bloke at the top do? Well he ploughed on as if nothing had happened of course. Nothing changed whatsoever. Our squad didn't improve, no new coaches/manager, nothing changed at boardroom level, nothing. What the fuck did he expect to happen this season? He obviously had ambitions to fight relegation all season again. Not acceptable.

More ambitious supporters would be demanding answers by now. Not us though.

Few quotes from a Congerton safcsee interview in September after the window pretty much outlines where our priorities were in the summer of 2014;

Congerton claimed we had a "solid window" in the summer he then said "hopefully we won't need as much in the future" - Immediate fail!!!
"We've signed some good players and hope to have a stable season" - erm...........
Suggests Alvarez was "another option" when Borini turned us down. (surely when Borini turned us down, we should have signed a striker??)
He said the list was worked upon by himself, Gus and the scouts. (begs the question why isn't he taking any responsibility for the shit signings??)
"we had a strategy which was very much the free transfers" - says a lot
"i'm actively scouting, something I enjoy" - what list did he create for January then? how actively did he scout Rodwell?
"I have my uefa badges, so I'm on the pitch working with the coaches"
"& we'll get ready for January" - I very much doubt Defoe was scouted. so what exactly did he get ready for January?
"scouting is important, WE scouted Will Buckley from the championship"
"that is the market we're looking at, players in the championship"
"great coaches"
"we should be in no rush to give away our players (from the academy)" - how many have been sold and gone out on loan? (he seemed very much against loaning out academy players

 

[Banks]

Here we go again ,who are we going to get next.The poor financial results are because of Short.

And? You do realise we cant just get rid of him. How many people would jump at investing in a business with crippling debts and about to lose 80% of its revenue

 

[Duke of Hendonshire]

Few quotes from a Congerton safcsee interview in September after the window pretty much outlines where our priorities were in the summer of 2014;

Congerton claimed we had a "solid window" in the summer he then said "hopefully we won't need as much in the future" - Immediate fail!!!
"We've signed some good players and hope to have a stable season" - erm...........
Suggests Alvarez was "another option" when Borini turned us down. (surely when Borini turned us down, we should have signed a striker??)
He said the list was worked upon by himself, Gus and the scouts. (begs the question why isn't he taking any responsibility for the shit signings??)
"we had a strategy which was very much the free transfers" - says a lot
"i'm actively scouting, something I enjoy" - what list did he create for January then? how actively did he scout Rodwell?
"I have my uefa badges, so I'm on the pitch working with the coaches"
"& we'll get ready for January" - I very much doubt Defoe was scouted. so what exactly did he get ready for January?
"scouting is important, WE scouted Will Buckley from the championship"
"that is the market we're looking at, players in the championship"
"great coaches"
"we should be in no rush to give away our players (from the academy)" - how many have been sold and gone out on loan? (he seemed very much against loaning out academy players

So long as we have this DOF/Head Coach system there will be a perpetual cycle of the shit resting at the head coach's revolving door

 

[SuperKev]

Said previously that although I accept he's put a decent amount of money into the club to keep us going he's basically pissing it up the wall due to his appalling lack of direction and his decision making.

 

[MonkeyLove]

There are chairman you actually dislike because of how they act. I don't dislike Short.

He has not been malicious or deceitful or anything like that.

However his tenure is one of resounding failure. Success and financially wise.

Which is strange as everything else he has done has turned to Gold.

 

[SuperKev]

We've followed the same model for the last 50 odd years - get new manager, spend money, sack manager - to no success. We did that spectacularly with Bruce and MON - spending millions for no success. He has decided that he wants to try a different route - I understand and agree with that. He wants to try to replicate the Swansea and Southampton model - that seems very sensible - get a footballing identity and set the youth system and scouting system to fit this where managers can be interchangeable without completely changing the direction of the club. He had a massive false start with Di Fanti but then appointed Congerton - an experienced man for this type of role. He's been in less than a year and people have decided he's rubbish, they think he's just a head scout. It will take a lot longer than one year to get success from this model - that doesn't make it the wrong thing to do. The other alternative is appoint Allardyce - chuck money at it to get the type of player he needs and repeat the mistakes of the last 50 years.

It may not work but then again precious little has in my 40 years of attending. Personally I'm happy that I can at least understand what the plan is and can see the logic in it. I would imagine that you would have had the red card up when people wanted Murray out. History proved Murray right - the SOL and the AOL have created the platform that may ultimately bring some sustainable success.

The difference between Swansea, Southampton and us is that they've both bought very very well whereas we have bought poorly.

We have no players with any real resale value.

There are chairman you actually dislike because of how they act. I don't dislike Short.

He has not been malicious or deceitful or anything like that.

However his tenure is one of resounding failure. Success and financially wise.

Which is strange as everything else he has done has turned to Gold.

We've even jinxed a hard nosed ruthless hedge fund owner.

 

[Lord Alfred]

We've followed the same model for the last 50 odd years - get new manager, spend money, sack manager - to no success. We did that spectacularly with Bruce and MON - spending millions for no success. He has decided that he wants to try a different route - I understand and agree with that. He wants to try to replicate the Swansea and Southampton model - that seems very sensible - get a footballing identity and set the youth system and scouting system to fit this where managers can be interchangeable without completely changing the direction of the club. He had a massive false start with Di Fanti but then appointed Congerton - an experienced man for this type of role. He's been in less than a year and people have decided he's rubbish, they think he's just a head scout. It will take a lot longer than one year to get success from this model - that doesn't make it the wrong thing to do. The other alternative is appoint Allardyce - chuck money at it to get the type of player he needs and repeat the mistakes of the last 50 years.

It may not work but then again precious little has in my 40 years of attending. Personally I'm happy that I can at least understand what the plan is and can see the logic in it. I would imagine that you would have had the red card up when people wanted Murray out. History proved Murray right - the SOL and the AOL have created the platform that may ultimately bring some sustainable success.

All well and good having a strategy for the club but only if it's carried out with competence. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with any set-up be it a DOF based one or a traditional one.....where they go wrong is when the wrong people are appointed into key roles. The de Fanti/Di Canio axis almost beggars belief in it's incompetence and subsequent appointments look just as bad. You say we can't expect to see immediate results with a DOF system but after 18 months you'd think you could find something you could identify and say yes, progress is being made there......but you can't....the club is a shambles from top to bottom.

As for Bob Murray he did indeed leave us a magnificent legacy but he also presided over a calamitous spell where we were a national laughing stock and joined Darwin FC as holders of the "worst team of all time" title.......and all because he made a series of poor decisions starting with not backing Reid when we were flying high and not sacking him after the 4th bottom finish through to giving Mic Mac pennies to keep us in the PL and blocking his attempt to sign Darren Bent from Ipswich for £3m but allowing him to sign Stead and Gray for almost that amount.

It's not the system.....it's the people who make the decisions around that system that cause the problems. We had it under Murray and we have it currently under Short.

 

[10 Gary Rowells]

The difference between Swansea, Southampton and us is that they've both bought very very well whereas we have bought poorly.

We have no players with any real resale value.

You are missing my point. Swansea and Southampton put in their models 5 or 6 years ago and are reaping the benefits now. If you are trying to judge what Congerton is there to do in less than a year then you are really not considering what the club is attempting to do. Its not about whether Rodwell is a waste of money, its about trying to put in a structure and create a footballing culture or identity. Its not by chance that Monk has worked as a manager. I don't think fans at Sunderland will have the patience to do this, which is a shame after 40 or 50 years of trying the same thing and failing year after year.

All well and good having a strategy for the club but only if it's carried out with competence. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with any set-up be it a DOF based one or a traditional one.....where they go wrong is when the wrong people are appointed into key roles. The de Fanti/Di Canio axis almost beggars belief in it's incompetence and subsequent appointments look just as bad. You say we can't expect to see immediate results with a DOF system but after 18 months you'd think you could find something you could identify and say yes, progress is being made there......but you can't....the club is a shambles from top to bottom.

As for Bob Murray he did indeed leave us a magnificent legacy but he also presided over a calamitous spell where we were a national laughing stock and joined Darwin FC as holders of the "worst team of all time" title.......and all because he made a series of poor decisions starting with not backing Reid when we were flying high and not sacking him after the 4th bottom finish through to giving Mic Mac pennies to keep us in the PL and blocking his attempt to sign Darren Bent from Ipswich for £3m but allowing him to sign Stead and Gray for almost that amount.

It's not the system.....it's the people who make the decisions around that system that cause the problems. We had it under Murray and we have it currently under Short.

My point is you could say the club has been a shambles for 50 years - now not quite as bad as it has been in the past. I know you can see the logic of what I am talking about and this is a logic that Short has come up with - yes, Di Fanti was a disaster, and therefore you can rule out his time, but that doesn't make the plan the wrong one. Its trying something different, thats all. We simply have no success to compare it with and after MON there is virtually no managerial appointment that will guarantee success. As I say, I don't think people will have the patience to go with what seems to be an eminently sensible plan.

 

[treetop91]

Short has shown passion for the club when we have won key games but must tear his hair out at the rubbish we churn out week after week when he has seen his millions p****d down the drain. I'll bet whenever he bumps into Nyall Quinn he reminds him what he has done to him,getting him into SAFC ! I would be surprised if he didn't want to get out of Sunderland at the first opportunity given such lack of gratitude and fickleness. Perhaps Gus was right,there is something wrong deep within the club and the city which causes frequent failure.

 

[10 Gary Rowells]

There are chairman you actually dislike because of how they act. I don't dislike Short.

He has not been malicious or deceitful or anything like that.

However his tenure is one of resounding failure. Success and financially wise.

Which is strange as everything else he has done has turned to Gold.

As I have said many a time. This is the longest time we've been in the top flight since 1958 and yet it is viewed as a resounding failure - how does that work?

 

[Lord Alfred]

My point is you could say the club has been a shambles for 50 years - now not quite as bad as it has been in the past. I know you can see the logic of what I am talking about and this is a logic that Short has come up with - yes, Di Fanti was a disaster, and therefore you can rule out his time, but that doesn't make the plan the wrong one. Its trying something different, thats all. We simply have no success to compare it with and after MON there is virtually no managerial appointment that will guarantee success. As I say, I don't think people will have the patience to go with what seems to be an eminently sensible plan.

I'd expect a man who has made himself very rich by having financial acumen and making good decisions to appreciate the importance of doing the same in a different arena. He hasn't and you have to ask why......surely it's as easy to make the right decisions as it is to make the wrong ones. All it needed was for Short to surround himself with the very best people his millions could employ and/or seek advice from but instead it's been a series of shysters, frauds and confidence tricksters....people with no track-record of success at the job he employed them to do. He really needs to step aside and hand the reins over to someone with more acumen in the sphere he works in and allow them to reconstruct the club from top to bottom with a synergy running through the club that's been lacking under Short.