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Don't understand the offside rule...

Dodgy

Dodgy

Striker
Contributor
If any part of your body with which you can score is in an offside position, you're offside. How then, have two goals been allowed in the last two days ( Man City and Villa games), when they've been played onside by an elbow which is a part of the body you can't use? Surely it's got to be the same rule both ways.
Not that I accept that the mags goal was onside anyway.
 

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'The hands and arms of all players, including the goalkeepers, are not considered. For the purposes of determining offside, the upper boundary of the arm is in line with the bottom of the armpit.'

For some reason that's changed to the end of the sleeve.
 
Dodgy said:
If any part of your body with which you can score is in an offside position, you're offside. How then, have two goals been allowed in the last two days ( Man City and Villa games), when they've been played onside by an elbow which is a part of the body you can't use? Surely it's got to be the same rule both ways.
Not that I accept that the mags goal was onside anyway.
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It's not an elbow, it just looks that way. I can't be arsed to draw the armpit line but it's not that far off where it is shown in the image as it's the centre of the blue circle that is being used. They also darken the bit of the arm that is past the offside line and you can see it's nearer the Premier League badge. The other thing with the mags offside was the Man City player was slightly in the air (he does a skip jump) so the viewing perspective is fooled slightly.

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One thing I noticed in the Villa game is that they've stupidly drawn the arm pit offside line upwards but then drawn it behind the arm! You can just see the top of the green line appear in the gif below on the opposition player's hand.

Though watching the gif again I think I can see what is going on. The green line going up is the offside line to the armpit line, yet look at where the blue circles start from (especially the 2nd one) and where the white wall is as they're not in the same place.

If you can't see it, look where the white wall is and just how much of the arm is showing darker. Then watch where the blue circles start from, especially the 2nd one as they're further up the arm and where the green line ends up finishing. Look back at the Man City image above again, you can see where the blue circle is, yet the white wall is further away so ends up further down the arm given an advantage to the attacker.

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By doing this then it's giving a small advantage to the attacker. I noticed this anomaly on the Mags animation but it's clearer on the Villa one. The old manual blue & red lines also used to give a small advantage of using thicker lines and it looks like the 3D does also. This is what I mean as the green line is further back than the white wall. It's like what I suggested they do before it was ever used so that they still give a small advantage to the attacker.

 
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ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK said:
It's not an elbow, it just looks that way. I can't be arsed to draw the armpit line but it's not that far off where it is shown in the image as it's the centre of the blue circle that is being used. They also darken the bit of the arm that is past the offside line and you can see it's nearer the Premier League badge. The other thing with the mags offside was the Man City player was slightly in the air (he does a skip jump) so the viewing perspective is fooled slightly.

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One thing I noticed in the Villa game is that they've stupidly drawn the arm pit offside line upwards but then drawn it behind the arm! You can just see the top of the green line appear in the gif below on the opposition player's hand.

Though watching the gif again I think I can see what is going on. The green line going up is the offside line to the armpit line, yet look at where the blue circles start from (especially the 2nd one) and where the white wall is as they're not in the same place.

If you can't see it, look where the white wall is and just how much of the arm is showing darker. Then watch where the blue circles start from, especially the 2nd one as they're further up the arm and where the green line ends up finishing. Look back at the Man City image above again, you can see where the blue circle is, yet the white wall is further away so ends up further down the arm given an advantage to the attacker.

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By doing this then it's giving a small advantage to the attacker. I noticed this anomaly on the Mags animation but it's clearer on the Villa one. The old manual blue & red lines also used to give a small advantage of using thicker lines and it looks like the 3D does also. This is what I mean as the green line is further back than the white wall. It's like what I suggested they do before it was ever used so that they still give a small advantage to the attacker.

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Good post. Thanks for sharing. Looks further down the arm away from the armpit to me so its very tight & not 100% conclusive. The penalty that wasnt given for the foul on Foden is more cause for grievance I think
 
General Zod said:
Good post. Thanks for sharing. Looks further down the arm away from the armpit to me so its very tight & not 100% conclusive. The penalty that wasnt given for the foul on Foden is more cause for grievance I think
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It will never be conclusive but what it's doing is giving some benefit of the doubt to the attacker. It's definitely giving an advantage if you look at the blue circle in this repeating gif. You can see how the circle 'cuts' through the arm at the actual offside point nearer the arm pit line of the outer sleeve. If I had to guess it's around 5cm horizontally from the blue circle wall to the white wall.

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This is why the white wall looks like it's nearer the elbow as they're giving a small advantage to the attacker. Though I've never seen it mentioned anywhere but surely some people know about this? Even the old manual blue & red offside lines had an advantage. Though that wasn't widely known and people moaned about toenails, yet the advantage was 10 centimetres was in place for 4 seasons starting from the 2021/22 season onwards so bigger than a toe nail.

This 'advantage' is what I'd hoped they'd do prior to it coming in as this is an example image I knocked up years ago. The one on the left is the original semi-automated graphic used in World Cup & Champions League looking directly across the pitch. On the right, I added a thicker green line that gave a small advantage to the attacker and would now be onside.

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This seems to be what the Premier League seem to have done, albeit the advantage isn't as big as the example one of 10cm. This probably explains why they now don't show the direct across view any more either. What they do now is rotate around but stop before it gets straight across the pitch and they leave it at an angle. If they did swing it right around then it may show things differently. Such as the Man City one as it could possibly show Bruno's foot just offside and it's probably the 'advantage' that's played him onside.

Here's another one that's even clearer to see the advantage. The white wall is actually on the forearm but you can see the blue circles are in the correct place starting from the arm pit line. Again it's baffling why the Premier League or whoever it is hasn't made this advantage widely known.

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ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK said:
It will never be conclusive but what it's doing is giving some benefit of the doubt to the attacker. It's definitely giving an advantage if you look at the blue circle in this repeating gif. You can see how the circle 'cuts' through the arm at the actual offside point nearer the arm pit line of the outer sleeve. If I had to guess it's around 5cm horizontally from the blue circle wall to the white wall.

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This is why the white wall looks like it's nearer the elbow as they're giving a small advantage to the attacker. Though I've never seen it mentioned anywhere but surely some people know about this? Even the old manual blue & red offside lines had an advantage. Though that wasn't widely known and people moaned about toenails, yet the advantage was 10 centimetres was in place for 4 seasons starting from the 2021/22 season onwards so bigger than a toe nail.

This 'advantage' is what I'd hoped they'd do prior to it coming in as this is an example image I knocked up years ago. The one on the left is the original semi-automated graphic used in World Cup & Champions League looking directly across the pitch. On the right, I added a thicker green line that gave a small advantage to the attacker and would now be onside.

Logon or register to see this image


This seems to be what the Premier League seem to have done, albeit the advantage isn't as big as the example one of 10cm. This probably explains why they now don't show the direct across view any more either. What they do now is rotate around but stop before it gets straight across the pitch and they leave it at an angle. If they did swing it right around then it may show things differently. Such as the Man City one as it could possibly show Bruno's foot just offside and it's probably the 'advantage' that's played him onside.

Here's another one that's even clearer to see the advantage. The white wall is actually on the forearm but you can see the blue circles are in the correct place starting from the arm pit line. Again it's baffling why the Premier League or whoever it is hasn't made this advantage widely known.

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Click to expand...
Thanks for that. Still not convinced by the city one though. C*nts were offside.
 
Dodgy said:
Thanks for that. Still not convinced by the city one though. C*nts were offside.
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Aye the mags one looks offside, though the Man City player is in the air which means he looks further across the pitch than he is so will mislead you looking at the video frame of the offside. Even so, I think it's the advantage that has played Bruno onside but if it's the mags it should be taken away 😉

Looking at a few more of the Premier League offside graphics, it looks like the advantage is the thickness of the line that goes across the pitch. This advantage is what is making it look like it's the elbow being used as the white wall is further back than the actual offside point itself. Here's another example but look at the circles in the ground.

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Look where the blue circles are going into the deck as they're behind the thick light green line going across the pitch.

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The attacker can be standing on the green line but still be onside. This happened in the Villa game as the boot (pointy one anarl!) was shown over the green line but not past it.

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Why they do it this way is baffling as it's just confusing, especially when you can't see the point they're using with the upright line or the fact they're giving an advantage. Though the advantage is a small positive I suppose as it will never be perfect. I still think that green line should be thicker to eliminate most doubt of it being offside and it would mean more goals being allowed.

Ah well, the thread was good while it lasted I suppose now the elbow conspiracy has been solved 🤣

:edit: I could have just used AI as I asked it if there was an advantage with semi-automated rather than stumble across it. The 'advantage' actually has been publicised by the Premier League but I guess it's not widely known. Nor have they really explained how it will look as I've tried to explain above. This is what is leading to people questioning why the elbow?

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Will SAOT mean more ‘toenail’ offsides?​


The SAOT system will continue to implement the existing "thicker" lines, maintaining the integrity in the competition and consistency with the approach introduced in the Premier League at the start of the 2021/22 season.
 
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I'm probably just daft but I hate this "armpit" stuff. Is there an easy way that I'm missing to determine exactly where the armpit stops and the upper arm starts?
 
Guinness Guzzler said:
I'm probably just daft but I hate this "armpit" stuff. Is there an easy way that I'm missing to determine exactly where the armpit stops and the upper arm starts?
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It's this bit in green and it's as if you cut the sleeve across directly from the armpit. As you can lift the arm up then that green bit will be higher. You can see this example in the bottom half of the image showing the arm up and down and how the offside line would move with the arm/sleeve.

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scotch said:
Bring back the clear daylight offside rule, got the technology now that they could actually enforce it better
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It's never been a rule, it was just something linesman used as a guide to help them call offside. Even then they still got it wrong anyway. The clear daylight could never happen as that means an attacker could stand with his torso behind a defender blocking him, yet stay onside by having his foot back over the 'daylight' line.

On a side note, I just found another example of the advantage I made for Euro 2024. The top half was the actual VAR image and given offside. The bottom half has the advantage of the 'grey area' and this is exactly what the Premier League has now and how it's now onside.

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It's a similar example of a close decision like the mags and Villa ones if you turned them fully sideways. This is why the Premier League aren't swinging the clip all the way around showing the straight across view. If they did then some people would then complain that the player is actually offside and ignore the whole point of the 'advantage' is to help eliminate some of the doubt of offside and allow more goals. It's never going to be perfect but it's consistent within a small margin of error, unlike linesman who can be yards out, and at least there is some advantage also.
 
Guinness Guzzler said:
I'm probably just daft but I hate this "armpit" stuff. Is there an easy way that I'm missing to determine exactly where the armpit stops and the upper arm starts?
Click to expand...
Measuring microscopically where a players armpit is to determine offsides is just stultifying, it’s a good job the players wear tight fitting underpants or we could have some interesting measuring going on.
 
If we had scored the ‘goal’ that Newcastle scored against Man City, it would have been disallowed.
 
It's tosh.

Why can't we move back to clear daylight between the players. It would give both teams he same advantage, make it easier to spot, result in more goals, no waiting for 10 mins to see if a players studs kept the other player onside before finally celebrating a goal.
 
ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK said:
It's this bit in green and it's as if you cut the sleeve across directly from the armpit. As you can lift the arm up then that green bit will be higher. You can see this example in the bottom half of the image showing the arm up and down and how the offside line would move with the arm/sleeve.

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Click to expand...

No handball..................

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