Death Penalty / Euthanasia

[MonkeyLove]

I know there has been a lot of debate in the US recently with various states either stopping or suspending the death penalty because of concerns about the drugs and how humane they are.

How come whenever you read about Euthanasia it’s always said by witnesses to be incredibly peaceful and dignifying but those on death row apparently were subject to pain and agony.

I know certainly pharmaceutical companies won’t sell drugs for the death penalty but euthanasia drugs have been around for decades so surely there is no patent on them and anyone could knock up generics.

Surely can they not just use the same approach?

 

[Duracel Funny]

Don't know.

 

[Goat Eyes]

This is a mind fuck.

 

[AlpineExile]

Medical doctors take an oath to 'do no harm'.

Killing someone who doesn't want to die is considered 'harm' so doctors refuse to participate and so the folk who do participate in executions don't have the same skill set/ability that every vet who has had to put down someone's pet has.

 

[CPLforever]

I know there has been a lot of debate in the US recently with various states either stopping or suspending the death penalty because of concerns about the drugs and how humane they are.

How come whenever you read about Euthanasia it’s always said by witnesses to be incredibly peaceful and dignifying but those on death row apparently were subject to pain and agony.

I know certainly pharmaceutical companies won’t sell drugs for the death penalty but euthanasia drugs have been around for decades so surely there is no patent on them and anyone could knock up generics.

Surely can they not just use the same approach?

That is actually very interesting. So Dignitas and all that and those in favour of "relieving their sufferring" and death penalty, horrific, painful inhumane? Is it about choice? Is it that the folk at Dignitas just are better more thorough at their jobs.

Not sure...but you have given me something to think about.

This is a mind fuck.

It is a bit isn't it.

Medical doctors take an oath to 'do no harm'.

Killing someone who doesn't want to die is considered 'harm' so doctors refuse to participate and so the folk who do participate in executions don't have the same skill set/ability that every vet who has had to put down someone's pet has.

So are you saying for a fact that people who carry out executions in the USA are not medically trained. That is bloody horrifying if true (not saying you are incorrect just suppose I can quite believe it cos it's so horrific.)

 

[Fcomp]

It's because the death penalty is intended as a punishment, not a relief.
It's made scary to deter people.
It's really easy to kill someone peacefully. Many drug addicts have done it by mistake with an overdose.

 

[Ciro_DiMarzio]

There is definitely an argument to be made for some criminals to have to option to be euthanised. Same option should apply for no criminals as well mind.

It's because the death penalty is intended as a punishment, not a relief.
It's made scary to deter people.
It's really easy to kill someone peacefully. Many drug addicts have done it by mistake with an overdose.

It doesn't deter people though. Never did.

 

[AlpineExile]

So are you saying for a fact that people who carry out executions in the USA are not medically trained. That is bloody horrifying if true (not saying you are incorrect just suppose I can quite believe it cos it's so horrific.)

They usually have some training and are 'medical technicians' but they won't have taken the Hippocratic oath as doctors do. They're not allowed/trained to use cardiac needles to deliver the potassium which is what you need to use as the second step of a normal two step euthanasia.

 

[LondonBlackCat]

I know there has been a lot of debate in the US recently with various states either stopping or suspending the death penalty because of concerns about the drugs and how humane they are.

How come whenever you read about Euthanasia it’s always said by witnesses to be incredibly peaceful and dignifying but those on death row apparently were subject to pain and agony.

I know certainly pharmaceutical companies won’t sell drugs for the death penalty but euthanasia drugs have been around for decades so surely there is no patent on them and anyone could knock up generics.

Surely can they not just use the same approach?

I imagine the setting is one important differentiator, being strapped to a gurney is different to sitting or laying down at your option.

There are also suggestions that the sedatives used in lethal injection protocols aren’t appropriate or strong enough, the three drug protocol usually has a sedative, a strong muscle relaxant and then something to induce cardiac arrest. The latter is apparently excruciatingly painful and being semi conscious when it goes in would be horrific.

Dignitas, I believe, uses a very large overdose of barbiturates which causes unconsciousness, coma and then death. This would be a much simpler method than the three drug protocol for lethal injection.

I think at least one state is preparing to use nitrogen induced hypoxia which is probably the least cruel non-drug method. Your body won’t realise you’re becoming hypoxic as you continue to breath out carbon dioxide whilst inhaling nitrogen.

 

[CPLforever]

I imagine the setting is one important differentiator, being strapped to a gurney is different to sitting or laying down at your option.

There are also suggestions that the sedatives used in lethal injection protocols aren’t appropriate or strong enough, the three drug protocol usually has a sedative, a strong muscle relaxant and then something to induce cardiac arrest. The latter is apparently excruciatingly painful and being semi conscious when it goes in would be horrific.

Dignitas, I believe, uses a very large overdose of barbiturates which causes unconsciousness, coma and then death. This would be a much simpler method than the three drug protocol for lethal injection.

I think at least one state is preparing to use nitrogen induced hypoxia which is probably the least cruel non-drug method. Your body won’t realise you’re becoming hypoxic as you continue to breath out carbon dioxide whilst inhaling nitrogen.

Bloody bloody hell. I wonder if there is a conscious (?) train of thought that says we should make it as painful and horrible as possible, cos killing them isn't enough it should also be horrifying and terrifying.

 

[Ciro_DiMarzio]

Bloody bloody hell. I wonder if there is a conscious (?) train of thought that says we should make it as painful and horrible as possible, cos killing them isn't enough it should also be horrifying and terrifying.

Sounds mad but watching my poor old Jasper (dog not person) pass away was upsetting but also comforting at the time. It was very quick and seemed painless for him (I could be wrong that it was painless). I wish I could go like that at a time of my choosing.

 

[Goat Eyes]

Could just sit them in a room and fill it with Carbon Monoxide.

I imagine the setting is one important differentiator, being strapped to a gurney is different to sitting or laying down at your option.

There are also suggestions that the sedatives used in lethal injection protocols aren’t appropriate or strong enough, the three drug protocol usually has a sedative, a strong muscle relaxant and then something to induce cardiac arrest. The latter is apparently excruciatingly painful and being semi conscious when it goes in would be horrific.

Dignitas, I believe, uses a very large overdose of barbiturates which causes unconsciousness, coma and then death. This would be a much simpler method than the three drug protocol for lethal injection.

I think at least one state is preparing to use nitrogen induced hypoxia which is probably the least cruel non-drug method. Your body won’t realise you’re becoming hypoxic as you continue to breath out carbon dioxide whilst inhaling nitrogen.

 

[LondonBlackCat]

Bloody bloody hell. I wonder if there is a conscious (?) train of thought that says we should make it as painful and horrible as possible, cos killing them isn't enough it should also be horrifying and terrifying.

It does seem that way, especially when less painful and less unpleasant methods have been around for quite some time.

A gigantic overdose of barbiturates would almost certainly achieve the same ends without risking excruciating pain.

Could just sit them in a room and fill it with Carbon Monoxide.

That would be pretty unpleasant and would almost certainly cause a panic reaction as well as other side effects. Nitrogen or helium are the real options.

 

[Ciro_DiMarzio]

It does seem that way, especially when less painful and less unpleasant methods have been around for quite some time.

A gigantic overdose of barbiturates would almost certainly achieve the same ends without risking excruciating pain.

That would be pretty unpleasant and would almost certainly cause a panic reaction as well as other side effects. Nitrogen or helium are the real options.

Seems like a no brainer to make any death penalty quick an painless for me. I'm a leftie softy though.

 

[cornish mackem]

I thought it was because the drug companies wouldn’t supply the stuff as it impacted the share price?
There’s many drugs that could kill somebody pain free and not always in big doses but they all need to be supplied.
As for the death penalty, it’s not exactly a deterrent judging by the amount of unlawful killings every year with guns.

 

[Barry Quizshow]

There is definitely an argument to be made for some criminals to have to option to be euthanised. Same option should apply for no criminals as well mind.

It doesn't deter people though. Never did.

Speaking as someone who would probably take that option with my condition as it progresses I doubt that the UK will ever make euthanasia legal for a number of reasons.

Firstly there will always be the moral/religious arguments regardless of whether or not you agree with them.

Secondly no safeguarding can guarantee that a person was not "influenced" in their decision. A (not particularly nice) example would be an elderly person requiring nursing home care that would result in their house being sold, which might not sot well with the potential inheritor/s and puts pressure on the individual either by knowing it is an issue or even coldly more direct pressure.

Thirdly and perhaps cynically from me there is too much money in the care, medical aids and pharmaceutical industries to not keep people alive. I am not just referring to those who have made substantial amounts from these businesses but also the thousands of ordinary care, medical, ancillary, sales and other jobs that people work as in these sectors.

The care group I am with has four homes of roughly equal size so for example if a quarter of the residents took a hypothetical euthanasia option then that leaves an empty home to either be filled again by a dwindling pool of clients or closed and sold for other purposes, making the staff redundant. Extrapolate this scenario nationwide and you have potentially thousands of job losses and multiple vacant properties.

TL;DR- I've gone off topic to give my early hours thoughts on euthanasia. Apologies for the rant and also if it makes no sense

 

[Ciro_DiMarzio]

Speaking as someone who would probably take that option with my condition as it progresses I doubt that the UK will ever make euthanasia legal for a number of reasons.

Firstly there will always be the moral/religious arguments regardless of whether or not you agree with them.

Secondly no safeguarding can guarantee that a person was not "influenced" in their decision. A (not particularly nice) example would be an elderly person requiring nursing home care that would result in their house being sold, which might not sot well with the potential inheritor/s and puts pressure on the individual either by knowing it is an issue or even coldly more direct pressure.

Thirdly and perhaps cynically from me there is too much money in the care, medical aids and pharmaceutical industries to not keep people alive. I am not just referring to those who have made substantial amounts from these businesses but also the thousands of ordinary care, medical, ancillary, sales and other jobs that people work as in these sectors.

The care group I am with has four homes of roughly equal size so for example if a quarter of the residents took a hypothetical euthanasia option then that leaves an empty home to either be filled again by a dwindling pool of clients or closed and sold for other purposes, making the staff redundant. Extrapolate this scenario nationwide and you have potentially thousands of job losses and multiple vacant properties.

TL;DR- I've gone off topic to give my early hours thoughts on euthanasia. Apologies for the rant and also if it makes no sense

Understand all your points marra. I am not in bad Physical health but of I could go tomorrow I would. The religious argument holds no weight for me but the other points are bang on.

 

[Barry Quizshow]

Understand all your points marra. I am not in bad Physical health but of I could go tomorrow I would. The religious argument holds no weight for me but the other points are bang on.

Thanks marra, I wish you all the best with what you are dealing with as well

 

[Cheesy Feet]

Speaking as someone who would probably take that option with my condition as it progresses I doubt that the UK will ever make euthanasia legal for a number of reasons.

Firstly there will always be the moral/religious arguments regardless of whether or not you agree with them.

Secondly no safeguarding can guarantee that a person was not "influenced" in their decision. A (not particularly nice) example would be an elderly person requiring nursing home care that would result in their house being sold, which might not sot well with the potential inheritor/s and puts pressure on the individual either by knowing it is an issue or even coldly more direct pressure.

Thirdly and perhaps cynically from me there is too much money in the care, medical aids and pharmaceutical industries to not keep people alive. I am not just referring to those who have made substantial amounts from these businesses but also the thousands of ordinary care, medical, ancillary, sales and other jobs that people work as in these sectors.

The care group I am with has four homes of roughly equal size so for example if a quarter of the residents took a hypothetical euthanasia option then that leaves an empty home to either be filled again by a dwindling pool of clients or closed and sold for other purposes, making the staff redundant. Extrapolate this scenario nationwide and you have potentially thousands of job losses and multiple vacant properties.

TL;DR- I've gone off topic to give my early hours thoughts on euthanasia. Apologies for the rant and also if it makes no sense

Good post mate..the bit you touched on about elderly people in a nursing home..my Dad was in a nursing home 4 years ago with severe metastatic Prostate cancer..we’d been told by the consultant that he wouldn’t last long..he was in there 11 days and he was in a lot of pain..we were giving him morphine that we’d ‘acquired’ to try and help with the pain..it was horrendous seeing him like that and there was nothing we could do to help..in cases like that then surely euthanasia is a mercy..if the consultants had offered it to us we’d have snapped their hands off..he wasn’t going to recover..he was in pain..there’d obviously be a procedure..consultants..doctors..we were relieved when he finally passed..but it could and should’ve been a fortnight before.

 

[Boldon Mackem]

We've a very close friend who is 45 next month, and was diagnosed with brain cancer in May, has deteriorated rapidly to the point she is now at home, on nothing but pain meds and anti-seizure drugs making the most of her last few weeks / months.
She has been provided the home euthanasia option and has the pill waiting in her wardrobe for when she decides the pain is too much and she wants to slide away peacefully and with dignity. It a terribly upsetting situation for everyone to be in, but we fully support her decision as it's her life and her body. Rightly, it is a very difficult process to navigate to get to this point with her oncology doctor having to agree that there is no more treatment, and that she is in sound mind when requesting. Then 2 weeks later they all meet again with another specialist doctor present to go through the same again, then when they are ok, you go to a third appointment (two weeks later again) with two totally independent medical professionals to make the final decision. There's only 2 pharmacies in the whole of Victoria who can dispense the drug, and again collecting it requires a long consult with the head pharmacist to go through the process.

She has it now, but isn't ready for "death day" just yet, but we will and do fully support her when the time comes for her to make her decision.

I personally think it is a very human and humane way of dealing with a problem that can only lead to pain and a horrible and inevitable death, and one I would choose if I'm ever in that situation. But fuck we will miss her.