County Premier League proposal

[Voice of fair play]

Bigoted: Someone who is bigoted has strong, unreasonable prejudices or opinions and will not change them, even when they are proved to be wrong.

That’s how it’s bigoted.

You didn’t just say they were good enough to get professional contracts, that has never been up for debate. Your stance was that they’d have got picked up no bother at all if Durham weren’t around.

The evidence against you is overwhelming, and you still refuse to acknowledge it. Over a hundred years worth of that aforementioned evidence suggests there’s a high probability that they wouldn’t have been picked up, the reasons for that are multiple, as I and @Parkside have already alluded to.

How many Durham/Northumberland cricketers played for England from 1877 to 1992??

And how many have played since?

I am not debating that for god sake man and I am not criticizing Durham.

Nobody is disputing that Durham having been marvelous at producing cricketers for England since 1992.

What evidence is against me I am not disputing your point you arguing with yourself!!

Stokes for instance is one of Englands best players ever, them type of players come up once in a generation and Harmison and Wood are two of Englands fastest bowlers ever!

Surely you have to admit people of that talent and ability how more chance of people get offered professional contracts than lesser quality players in the past
I agree once again Durham have been instrumental in getting players playing for England that would not have happened years before you have that point clear.

But 3 are a higher quality than the others since 1992 and the ones years before, confused how you can’t see that??

 

[brandon]

Stokes for instance is one of Englands best players ever, them type of players come up once in a generation and Harmison and Wood are two of Englands fastest bowlers ever!

Surely you have to admit people of that talent and ability how more chance of people get offered professional contracts than lesser quality players in the past

So where were they prior to 1992?

Your own argument mentions 3 world class players there from our area who’ve been unearthed in the time Durham have been a First Class county.

I’d add Collingwood for certain to that list.

BUT where were these types of player in the period between 1877 and 1992??

4 World Class lads from our region in the period of Durham being a FC county.

How many before? Why not?

 

[Voice of fair play]

I am not sure either one of us could be proved wrong as matter of opinion

So where were they prior to 1992?

Your own argument mentions 3 world class players there from our area who’ve been unearthed in the time Durham have been a First Class county.

I’d add Collingwood for certain to that list.

BUT where were these types of player in the period between 1877 and 1992??

4 World Class lads from our region in the period of Durham being a FC county.

How many before? Why not?

Like I say Durham having been marvelous at producing players for England since 1992.

 

[brandon]

Like I say Durham having been marvelous at producing players for England since 1992.

Not up for debate.

Where were all these locally based ‘world stars’ in the years between 1877 and 1992 fella?

 

[Voice of fair play]

Not up for debate.

Where were all these locally based ‘world stars’ in the years between 1877 and 1992 fella?

I am sure if a New Zealand father decided to bring Richard Hadlee over to Cumbria, pre 1992 that some county would have picked up that brilliant world class player!!

 

[Steak Pie]

It’s not a insult at all to anyone it’s simply a compliment to the ability of them 3 guys!!

How saying 3 very talented cricketers were good enough to get professional contracts is bigoted I will never know??

Bit insulting to Geoff Cook and the work that Durham have done in the region though.

All three players you mention acknowledge that, two of them openly state that, without Durham they wouldn't have played, while the other could quite easily have played Rugby League or gone back to New Zealand.

I suppose you know better than the players though.

 

[brandon]

I am sure if a New Zealand father decided to bring Richard Hadlee over to Cumbria, pre 1992 that some county would have picked up that brilliant world class player!!

So we had no talent of our own at all between 1877 and 1992 then??

Mate, there is some insane mental gymnastics going on from you here. Why are you still avoiding the obvious coincidence I keep pointing out?

 

[Voice of fair play]

Bit insulting to Geoff Cook and the work that Durham have done in the region though.

All three players you mention acknowledge that, two of them openly state that, without Durham they wouldn't have played, while the other could quite easily have played Rugby League or gone back to New Zealand.

I suppose you know better than the players though.

It’s openly stating all 3 are brilliant players that simple.

 

[brandon]

It’s openly stating all 3 are brilliant players that simple.

Can you answer my question please…

So we had no talent of our own at all between 1877 and 1992 then??

 

[Johnap]

We did have talent that went on to the First class game. Usually they went to Northampton because their scout in the North-East was Doug Ferguson. Colin Milburn, Peter Willey and Grant Forster come to mind but Grant didn't go on iirc.

I think that Brian Marwood had the chance to go but he went to Hull City instead. Opening bat for the Harbour,

 

[Stattos child]

Can’t be bothered to read all the arguments on the thread, get tired of people being belittled for an opinion, we can’t all be right all of the time
Anyway it’s got me thinking
Steve greensword was picked up by Leicestershire then came back.
Was collingwood better than greensword (similar players good solid batters who accumulated runs and decent Bowles)
So my question is, is collingwood far superior to greensword or was it harder back in Steve’s day due to number of quality cricketers (participatiion is down) around or if Durham existed (as 1st class) would Steve have been noticed more and played for England.
Before I get wrong and told off Durham has undoubtedly helped local lads progress to international status but just wondering what stopped the likes of Steve who did play county cricket
Elsewhere. I think part of it is the amount of tests would be interested to know the number of internationals used by England through each of the decades, more games gives more opportunities (injuries for whatever reason rare in older days)

 

[badger55]

Can’t be bothered to read all the arguments on the thread, get tired of people being belittled for an opinion, we can’t all be right all of the time
Anyway it’s got me thinking
Steve greensword was picked up by Leicestershire then came back.
Was collingwood better than greensword (similar players good solid batters who accumulated runs and decent Bowles)
So my question is, is collingwood far superior to greensword or was it harder back in Steve’s day due to number of quality cricketers (participatiion is down) around or if Durham existed (as 1st class) would Steve have been noticed more and played for England.
Before I get wrong and told off Durham has undoubtedly helped local lads progress to international status but just wondering what stopped the likes of Steve who did play county cricket
Elsewhere. I think part of it is the amount of tests would be interested to know the number of internationals used by England through each of the decades, more games gives more opportunities (injuries for whatever reason rare in older days)

Greensword was 16yrs old when he went to Leicestershire. No Academies those days. He had 6 seasons there and was offered a further deal but turned it down and he "headed home". He will have been 22/23 yrs old then.
I spoke to him many years after this and he told me he was "homesick", every season ! When he got a "couple of days off" he was straight back home on the train.
Eventually, he had had enough and packed it in.
If Durham were first class at the time, and he could be "at home", I wonder what the outcome would have been ?
His league and Minor Counties record was excellent, but clearly not first class.

 

[Parkside]

In those days players were poorly paid and only during the season I believe so had to find employment themselves for the winter. They were hugely reliant on a benefit for some security after their cricket career so it was a precarious profession.
As a schoolboy Greensword was a wicketkeeper batsman and only developed his bowling as he became a club pro. One day cricket was only in it's infancy when he was at Leics but later at Durham he proved to be a very effective limited overs bowler even against 1st class opposition in the then Gillette cup. He was a gritty, determined character like Collingwood and I'd have bet he'd have progressed like Colly had he been born later.
Probably would say the same about Stuart Young and Russel Inglis -God knows what heights those two could have reached.

 

[The Hesford Diet]

I remember the collection buckets going around during the game for a player's benefit year. They were employed from 1st April to 30th September back then, both playing and coaching staff, and many of them had the same struggles to make ends meet that we have.

Has it been pointed out yet to the FTECB that their avowed aim of prioritising white ball cricket meant that players coming through were being coached primarily for one day games? County and test cricket, which we all know requires different skill sets, were bound to suffer.

 

[Johnap]

Steve Greensword and the other players of that era had a difficult time anyway. How many went to public school?

Remember the Gentlemen v Players matches only finished in 1962 when the difference between amateurs and professionals was scrapped - apprently.

 

[Im wrang oni]

As much as people don't want to hear it, there are too many counties. The talent in this country is so diluted because of this.

I don't have the answers, but I don't disagree that there needs to be a real "Premier League and Championship" divide like there is in football to ensure the best are playing the best. In order for this to happen, I do think there needs to be more of a transfer system to ensure the best players are playing for "PL" counties.

I think 3 divisions of 6 could work - the Sheffield Shield really brings together the best talent in Australia with only 6 teams and if we had the best 66 cricketers in the country playing across the 6 "PL" counties, it would make for excellent competition. Again, in order for the competition to remain strong, the ECB need to allow England players to play for counties when they can, and counties need to bring in a real strong overseas international player to keep up standards.

Or we can always just carry on watching pretty average cricket with the odd headline act in each team, as groundsmen up and down the country produce green seamers so some dibbly dobbler can get 50+ wickets a season, leaving homegrown batters to look like absolute idiots when they face 90mph bowling in Australia.

Ultimately, competition needs to improve. This can only be done by the best cricketers playing regularly against the best.

I agree, the point on dilution is key. Especially as there are now less foreign but eligible players in County Cricket.
Is the solution to retain the existing first class counties who would participate in a county championship, One day competitions and T20 blast under their own moniker. Then add a Combined County Super League (CCSL - better branding required) in which the 18 first class counties combine resources in three's to form a six team league. 5 home and 5 away, 4 or even 5 day matches.
To illustrate, Durham combine with Yorkshire and Leicestershire to form one of the six teams. Each county hosts at least one home fixture but the focus would be on fixtures at test match venues. So not exactly the Hundred franchise model. No faux auctions, rather geographically close counties pooling their resources.
The first class 18 county championship would become purely a development area with the best players from each county focusing on the CCSL. Hence removing the dilution so that the CCSL features the best c66 domestic players (maybe include 1 or 2 overseas players and even central contract players when available to increase the standard). So you have the best 12 opening batsmen facing the 12 best opening bowlers etc.
Of course it still doesn't address the fact that, as a cricketer, you can earn plenty by becoming a limited overs specialist, so why would you want to hone your skills to become a test player, with limited contracts on offer?
What can't be denied is that currently the jump in standard from the County Championship to International test cricket is too wide so that gap needs to be reduced. Who knows the CCSL might even be a competition that attracts a TV rights deal and there might even be spectators who turn up to watch it.

 

[brandon]

Below is taken from the preview of Durham’s fixture away to Glamorgan - starting tomorrow - by BBC Radio Newcastle’s Martin Emmerson (MLF), I agree with every single word of it:

Here we go again. Another six months of county cricket beckons and Durham begin their 2022 campaign at Sophia Gardens where they hope to get - what should be a promotion crack - off to a good start. They meet a Glamorgan side who they beat in September last year, but who have added a few decent signings over the winter.
However there’s to be yet another ECB review into the structure of First Class cricket following another run of the mill hammering in The Ashes. And the defeat by The West Indies. All of it nothing new! Call me a cynic, but the fact England have only won one test in eons suggests the issue might be at the heart of their set-up and not the county structure.
On the BBC county cricket podcast this week Peter Moores pointed to the fact lots of support structures which were in place for England players, like regular winter sessions at Loughbrough and fast performance bowling courses, are no longer there. The system was designed to mirror the Australian Academy but has shrunk.
However, us lovers of county cricket know it is an easy stick to be beaten with and the usual voices have been making the usual noises about the usual England predicament.
One thing’s for sure though, working for the ECB review team looks like a job for life because those reviews come along so regularly. But what we still don’t know is if there will be two sides promoted at the end of the season or not. The elite review will take place in the summer. There have been reports of a 12-team elite league and a lesser league for the six remaining counties. The ECB denies this is a done deal though and says all options are on the table.
There’s been far too much tinkering with the game in recent years and too much concentration on white ball cricket as well. How many of the test players regularly turned out in the County Championship last year? And how many played any red ball cricket in the weeks leading up to the test series at the height of the summer against India?
England were a poor test nation in the 1990s. The ECB then introduced two divisions of nine with promotion and relegation and by the mid 2,000s they were the best test side in the world. Then the messing around with the formats began and look at the state of things now. Cause and effect?
Andrew Strauss is leading the latest review and has said in the past he believes there are too many counties. He is also one of the people who had a say about scrapping two divisions of nine and left us with two uneven divisions. He’s was involved in removing the toss only to see it brought back. And I think he had something to do with heavy rollers disappearing and coming back as well. I might be wrong but there’s a theme here, surely?
With so many formats in this country the County Championship continues to be pushed to the margins of early April and late September. But it has been for as long as I can remember so that is nothing new. As I regularly say, we are an island in The Atlantic and I couldn’t point to a single day in the six months of the season and guarantee you the weather will be good on that day. Two of the last three Marches have been the driest and sunniest on record. April last year was cold. May was miserable.
But playing little to no County Championship cricket at the height of the summer, like they did last year, is wrong. They have tried to remedy that this year with the fixture structure. But it may be a better idea to start the season with the One Day Cup and move into the championship a little later in The Spring. Having said that we got sunburned on my wife’s birthday a few seasons ago. That was April 21st and was one of the nicest days of the year. The same week two days of a County Championship match against Middlesex were lost to snow!
Easter 2019 was a scorcher from memory but the One Day Cup that May was a miserable and wet affair with all of Durham’s games away from home affected by rain. So there’s no magic answer to the question of weather.

 

[The Rat]

I am sure if a New Zealand father decided to bring Richard Hadlee over to Cumbria, pre 1992 that some county would have picked up that brilliant world class player!!

Nah you are way off on this one

Durham produces international cricketers, ones from state schools too, the leagues help too.

To say these lads would have just appeared somewhere else and made it is untrue

 

[Johnap]

Nah you are way off on this one

Durham produces international cricketers, ones from state schools too, the leagues help too.

To say these lads would have just appeared somewhere else and made it is untrue

"Ones from state schools too," is the clincher for me. Well said.

 

[Eggman]

I agree, the point on dilution is key. Especially as there are now less foreign but eligible players in County Cricket.
Is the solution to retain the existing first class counties who would participate in a county championship, One day competitions and T20 blast under their own moniker. Then add a Combined County Super League (CCSL - better branding required) in which the 18 first class counties combine resources in three's to form a six team league. 5 home and 5 away, 4 or even 5 day matches.
To illustrate, Durham combine with Yorkshire and Leicestershire to form one of the six teams. Each county hosts at least one home fixture but the focus would be on fixtures at test match venues. So not exactly the Hundred franchise model. No faux auctions, rather geographically close counties pooling their resources.
The first class 18 county championship would become purely a development area with the best players from each county focusing on the CCSL. Hence removing the dilution so that the CCSL features the best c66 domestic players (maybe include 1 or 2 overseas players and even central contract players when available to increase the standard). So you have the best 12 opening batsmen facing the 12 best opening bowlers etc.
Of course it still doesn't address the fact that, as a cricketer, you can earn plenty by becoming a limited overs specialist, so why would you want to hone your skills to become a test player, with limited contracts on offer?
What can't be denied is that currently the jump in standard from the County Championship to International test cricket is too wide so that gap needs to be reduced. Who knows the CCSL might even be a competition that attracts a TV rights deal and there might even be spectators who turn up to watch it.

It wouldn’t work if central contracts affected player availability