County Premier League proposal

[Twisted]

As said before mate of course I take your points, and of course what you say will have happened.

But people like Stokes were soo good would have got a professional contract whatever imo.

It’s certainly fair to say because of Durham he got his opportunity earlier, but not imo fair to say he would have not picked up by another county further down the line with his clear and undoubtedly talent

we'll never know tbh. and really it doesn't matter, in the specific case of stokes you might be right, you acknowledge it (probably) will have happened in other case and that's all my point was. restricting the number of counties player professional, competitive and longer format cricket will only make the net smaller for finding players leading to a reduction in overall numbers and the slow death of cricket as we know it.

 

[Parkside]

Voice of fair play said:
But the point remains a world star like Ben Stokes would have surely got a professional cricket contract with the talent he has if Durham had not been first on the scene personally I think that is obvious.

Stokes is an exception,exception doesn't prove a rule. In all likelihood Stokes would have returned to New Zealand and may well have progressed there.
It was Geoff Cook who showed the faith to allow him to stay; more lucrative counties couldn't do that.

 

[brandon]

As said before mate of course I take your points, and of course what you say will have happened.

But people like Stokes were soo good would have got a professional contract whatever imo.

It’s certainly fair to say because of Durham he got his opportunity earlier, but not imo fair to say he would have not picked up by another county further down the line with his clear and undoubtedly talent

Durham offered him a contract at 17, had he not got that contract he’d have concentrated on Rugby League.

His own words, not mine:

You must be logged on to see external links

BUT, seeing how you know so much about it, come on and tell us which other county would’ve scouted a lad playing cricket for Cockermouth CC if Durham hadn’t…..?

 

[Voice of fair play]

we'll never know tbh. and really it doesn't matter, in the specific case of stokes you might be right, you acknowledge it (probably) will have happened in other case and that's all my point was. restricting the number of counties player professional, competitive and longer format cricket will only make the net smaller for finding players leading to a reduction in overall numbers and the slow death of cricket as we know it.

Yeah good point, get where you coming from obviously geographically if a player is further away from a county which could happen if less counties, then there could possibly be less chance of get picked up so yeah agree with your general point.

Was simply making the point that some players are soo good and soo talented and soo hungry they will make it at some point and Stokes for example imo is most definitely in that category

Durham offered him a contract at 17, had he not got that contract he’d have concentrated on Rugby League.

His own words, not mine:

You must be logged on to see external links

BUT, seeing how you know so much about it, come on and tell us which other county would’ve scouted a lad playing cricket for Cockermouth CC if Durham hadn’t…..?

Lancashire have picked up players from Cumbria before surely?

I not sure why you continue to be soo defensive.

What I am saying is a compliment to Ben Stokes that he is such a brilliant cricketer he would have made it anyway due to his hungry and talent.

It’s hardly offensive to anyone in fact quite the opposite

Stokes is an exception,exception doesn't prove a rule. In all likelihood Stokes would have returned to New Zealand and may well have progressed there.
It was Geoff Cook who showed the faith to allow him to stay; more lucrative counties couldn't do that.

You right Stokes is a exception that’s my point, don’t dispute the general point and never have that Durham have been brilliant in recruiting players for themselves and England.

 

[brandon]

Lancashire have picked up players from Cumbria before surely?

So why didn’t they recruit Stokes?

I not sure why you continue to be soo defensive.

I’m not being defensive, I’m having to AGAIN point out that you’re doing this stupid routine. The one we’ve seen too many times before, where you, as a self confessed non-follower of county cricket - try to tell lads on here who have followed county cricket for years and years, just how things are and how they ought to be.

And here you are again - when overwhelming evidence is provided to you that shrinking the talent pool by endangering counties will be a massive detriment to England - still not getting it.

What I am saying is a compliment to Ben Stokes that he is such a brilliant cricketer he would have made it anyway due to his hungry and talent.

It’s hardly offensive to anyone in fact quite the opposite

It is offensive. It isn’t a compliment to Ben Stokes at all, it’s a complete insult to several lads on here who follow Durham home and away, including spending time watching the Seconds and our world class Academy. Several who were watching Ben Stokes bat and bowl for Durham before he was a ‘world star’. It’s also a complete insult to Durham County Cricket Club to completely brush off the positive effect that they’ve had on English cricket over the last two decades. People like Geoff Cook, John Windows, Martyn Moxon, Jon Lewis, Paul Collingwood even, who time and time again gave young lads a go when other counties overlooked them. Who would regularly play homegrown young players over signing kolpaks, or poaching from elsewhere like clubs like Nottinghamshire and Middlesex would do. It was Don Robson’s (do you even know who he is?) vision all them years ago to have a lad from one of the pit villages stride out to open the batting for England (Stoneman). He probably didn’t think the success would happen so quickly, that the Academy would bear such juicy fruit that we’d have a World Cup winning captain, a world number 1 bowler and the man of the match in another WC Final win inside 30 years.

It was pointed out to you that barely anyone from Durham/Northumberland played cricket for England in the hundred odd years prior to 1992, can you tell us without googling who the last player to play for England from the North East was prior to Collingwood’s inclusion in an England side?

Do you know also that Collingwood wasn’t our first as a First Class county? Do you know who was?

If ‘world stars’ always get picked up anyway, why weren’t lads from Durham and Northumberland regularly in the England teams of the 1950’s and the 1960’s and 1970’s and the 1980’s?? Where were they? Come on and tell us all, I’ll wait, because you still haven’t addressed it

 

[Parkside]

The salient point,which VoFP either ignores or is ignorant of , is that scores of young players received offers from other counties but turned them down because they,and/or their families would have had to reallocate. Wilkinson,Young, Parnaby, Inglis,Keeler,Burridge, A.Old. etc,etc.
Many received offers undoubtedly, few accepted them. In all likelihood,Stokes would have been lost to New Zealand.

 

[brandon]

The salient point,which VoFP either ignores or is ignorant of

It’s the first one. He does this all the time, wilfully ignores staggering evidence that contradicts the stance he wants to take.

Never have I seen such an unsuitable username.

 

[Parkside]

Furthermore,if Stokes was so certain of obtaining other offers , he must have rejected them and they'd probably been more lucrative than what Durham could offer

It’s the first one. He does this all the time, wilfully ignores staggering evidence that contradicts the stance he wants to take.

Never have I seen such an unsuitable username.

Disagree, it's wholly suitable. It indicates arrogance.

 

[Voice of fair play]

Fuck me who would have thought simply having a opinion that one of the worlds best cricketers because of his undoubted talent would have made it in the game at some point irrespective of which county picked him up first would cause such backlash!!
For some unknown reason that opinion seems to have escalated into a criticism of Durham.

No idea why as I have said in a few posts above that Durham have been brilliant in recruiting players for themselves and England.

 

[Parkside]

Fuck me who would have thought simply having a opinion that one of the worlds best cricketers because of his undoubted talent would have made it in the game at some point irrespective of which county picked him up first would cause such backlash!!
For some unknown reason that opinion seems to have escalated into a criticism of Durham.

No idea why as I have said in a few posts above that Durham have been brilliant in recruiting players for themselves and England.

You're fully entitled to hold whatever opinion you wish. It's your refusal to address counter arguments that causes the maelstrom and changing your point during the discussion. Your original point was not solely about Stokes being offered contracts elsewhere. Stokes probably was offered contracts elsewhere,obviously he rejected them.
If you knew anything about Harmison and Wood you'd know they're home loving guys like many others who likewise chose not to relocate.
It's not about being offered opportunities elsewhere,it's about the likelihood of accepting them.

 

[brandon]

Fuck me who would have thought simply having a opinion that one of the worlds best cricketers because of his undoubted talent would have made it in the game at some point irrespective of which county picked him up first would cause such backlash!!

You thought the same of Harmison and Wood not too long ago. I notice you’ve since dropped that charade, perhaps because you got shown your arse..?

Still haven’t answered any of my questions though - were there no ‘undoubted talents’ up here in the hundred years prior to Durham becoming a First Class county? That’s of course after you’ve acknowledged the undeniable fact that Durham nurtured and then also gave Stokes a chance to showcase that ‘undoubted talent’ that no other county did. If you’re so familiar with his projection (you definitely aren’t), you can tell us which county and at what point of his journey would he have been picked up??

Stokes probably was offered contracts elsewhere,obviously he rejected them.

He wasn’t mate, check the article I linked earlier this morning.

It's not about being offered opportunities elsewhere,it's about the likelihood of accepting them.

It’s both, in fairness

 

[mosi]

You don’t get to see the word ‘maelstrom’ on pure football very often

 

[Voice of fair play]

You're fully entitled to hold whatever opinion you wish. It's your refusal to address counter arguments that causes the maelstrom and changing your point during the discussion. Your original point was not solely about Stokes being offered contracts elsewhere. Stokes probably was offered contracts elsewhere,obviously he rejected them.
If you knew anything about Harmison and Wood you'd know they're home loving guys like many others who likewise chose not to relocate.
It's not about being offered opportunities elsewhere,it's about the likelihood of accepting them.

Fair enough it was a general polite opinion that real quality players will get picked up that’s why I mentioned two very talented fast bowlers and one of the worlds best all rounders.

It’s fair enough you disagree with me about Wood and Harmison which I still think talent would have got them professional contracts further down the line.

Of course it’s impossible to tell whether that would have happened or not, so of course I could be wrong.

As they may have to decided to stay home like you say who knows

But guess there is points either way and we could never know either way it’s just my polite opinion.

The fact this has been turned round by @brandon yet again as a criticism of Durham is quite frankly ridiculous when I have cleared praised Durham for all their recruitment and work.

 

[brandon]

Fair enough it was a general polite opinion that real quality players will get picked up that’s why I mentioned two very talented fast bowlers and one of the worlds best all rounders.

It was ‘general polite opinion’ the first time, but when you double/treble/quadruple down on it despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary it quickly becomes an insult to proper cricket people.

That you’ve tried once again to force your bigoted view through, in the hope nobody would pull you up on it is shameful.

Fool me once, etc…

 

[Parkside]

Fair enough it was a general polite opinion that real quality players will get picked up that’s why I mentioned two very talented fast bowlers and one of the worlds best all rounders.

It’s fair enough you disagree with me about Wood and Harmison which I still think talent would have got them professional contracts further down the line.

Of course it’s impossible to tell whether that would have happened or not, so of course I could be wrong.

But guess there is points either way and we could never know either way it’s just my polite opinion.

The fact this has been turned round by @brandon yet again as a criticism of Durham is quite frankly ridiculous when I have cleared praised Durham for all they recruitment and work.

Again though you're missing the point. It's not simply being picked up,it's the likelihood of accepting an offer. Very appealing if you can stay local but an entirely different proposition when it means relocating. On balance not worth the risk imo, not like football!I where there's a chance of untold riches. Stay at home, continue your chosen career with decent side earnings in club cricket.

 

[Voice of fair play]

Again though you're missing the point. It's not simply being picked up,it's the likelihood of accepting an offer. Very appealing if you can stay local but an entirely different proposition when it means relocating. On balance not worth the risk imo, not like football!I where there's a chance of untold riches. Stay at home, continue your chosen career with decent side earnings in club cricket.

Fair enough can see that point.

It’s a difficult to know peoples exact mindset and personality at point of offer.

If you saying Wood and Harmison are more home birds which Harmison has certainly indicated in the past no problem at all with that logic.

My simple logic was that all 3 mentioned were clearly good enough and imo would have been likely to get offers at some point during their early career.

Which is without doubt is a fair point based on their ability.

It was ‘general polite opinion’ the first time, but when you double/treble/quadruple down on it despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary it quickly becomes an insult to proper cricket people.

That you’ve tried once again to force your bigoted view through, in the hope nobody would pull you up on it is shameful.

Fool me once, etc…

It’s not a insult at all to anyone it’s simply a compliment to the ability of them 3 guys!!

How saying 3 very talented cricketers were good enough to get professional contracts is bigoted I will never know??

 

[Parkside]

Fair enough can see that point.

It’s a difficult to know peoples exact mindset and personality at point of offer.

If you saying Wood and Harmison are more home birds which Harmison has certainly indicated in the past no problem at all with that logic.

My simple logic was that all 3 mentioned were clearly good enough and imo would have been likely to get offers at some point during their early career.

Which is without doubt is a fair point based on their ability.

It’s not a insult at all to anyone it’s simply a compliment to the ability of them 3 guys!!

How saying 3 very talented cricketers were good enough to get professional contracts is bigoted I will never know??

Obviously depends how wide a counties scouting network spreads regarding offers.Academies will no doubt have contacts within their local leagues,and probably neighbouring non 1st class counties. Majority of them though wouldn't have a clue where outposts like Ashington are let alone scouting their players.

 

[Voice of fair play]

Obviously depends how wide a counties scouting network spreads regarding offers.Academies will no doubt have contacts within their local leagues,and probably neighbouring non 1st class counties. Majority of them though wouldn't have a clue where outposts like Ashington are let alone scouting their players.

Yeah would not disagree with that and was the point that @Twisted made, that if you reduce counties meaning less geographically area covered less chance of players been noticed.

I have never really disagreed with that general point, was making the point that some players that good will get noticed wherever they play because as they develop would be too good not too.

But yes of course in general harder for players from Ashington to get spotted than someone from Bristol for example.

 

[brandon]

It’s not a insult at all to anyone it’s simply a compliment to the ability of them 3 guys!!

How saying 3 very talented cricketers were good enough to get professional contracts is bigoted I will never know??

Bigoted: Someone who is bigoted has strong, unreasonable prejudices or opinions and will not change them, even when they are proved to be wrong.

That’s how it’s bigoted.

You didn’t just say they were good enough to get professional contracts, that has never been up for debate. Your stance was that they’d have got picked up no bother at all if Durham weren’t around.

The evidence against you is overwhelming, and you still refuse to acknowledge it. Over a hundred years worth of that aforementioned evidence suggests there’s a high probability that they wouldn’t have been picked up, the reasons for that are multiple, as I and @Parkside have already alluded to.

How many Durham/Northumberland cricketers played for England from 1877 to 1992??

And how many have played since?

 

[Provider]

So, just to be clear.... In the 2000s/early 2010s when we won home and away Ashes, won in India and reached number 1 in the world, that was nothing to do with the CC. But now we're struggling, it's because of the CC.

Is that it?

The only thing that's change is we've seen the domestic season concentrate everything on short format. Not even 50 overs, just short form slap and tickle. How do you expect players to learn how to play hard test cricket when we've limited them to 3 or 4 games of red ball cricket in the summer, with the rest shunted out to the spring and the autumn?

It's laughable that no-one from the ECB will admit to what they've done. It's laughable that they have the Sky and BBC onside, bought and paid for by the 16.4, so we never hear a dissenting voice.

Remember when I said on here that the 16.4 was a power grab by the ECB and the counties would be killed off, and some people called me paranoid? Well shucks!

Well said, sir. Perfectly put.