County Premier League proposal

[Steak Pie]

We didn’t need the T20 Blast AND The Hundred, but they won’t admit they got it wrong.

Real leadership is admitting a mistake and correcting it, rather than continue down the wrong path

You're making the same mistake though, you're looking at this with the eyes of a cricket fan.

The 16.4 is the vehicle to take control from the counties, it's got nothing to do with advancing the game.

Think about it from their perspective. You are in control of the game in England and you have the golden goose (the England team) but you are absolutely beholden to the clubs that play the game. Without them you can't play, because they have the grounds and the players. So what do you do? You try to take away the power of the clubs, and the way they do that is the 16.4 with franchises they control, and try to make that the dominate force.

It was clear as soon as the PR started in the run up to it's launch, the lies they told to try and justify themselves were laughable. But as long as enough people swallow this shite, the counties are doomed. And it looks like enough cricket fans are prepared to bend over and take it.

If you can cut some counties adrift in the mean time, then what a fantastic bonus.

 

[The Rat]

As much as people don't want to hear it, there are too many counties. The talent in this country is so diluted because of this.

I don't have the answers, but I don't disagree that there needs to be a real "Premier League and Championship" divide like there is in football to ensure the best are playing the best. In order for this to happen, I do think there needs to be more of a transfer system to ensure the best players are playing for "PL" counties.

I think 3 divisions of 6 could work - the Sheffield Shield really brings together the best talent in Australia with only 6 teams and if we had the best 66 cricketers in the country playing across the 6 "PL" counties, it would make for excellent competition. Again, in order for the competition to remain strong, the ECB need to allow England players to play for counties when they can, and counties need to bring in a real strong overseas international player to keep up standards.

Or we can always just carry on watching pretty average cricket with the odd headline act in each team, as groundsmen up and down the country produce green seamers so some dibbly dobbler can get 50+ wickets a season, leaving homegrown batters to look like absolute idiots when they face 90mph bowling in Australia.

Ultimately, competition needs to improve. This can only be done by the best cricketers playing regularly against the best.

if the Sheffield Shield system was so good why havent Australia won in England for over 20 years?

 

[Bri]

I genuinely believe Durham would make it. Too many counties in the midlands and south west in my opinion.

Premier League:
1. Yorkshire
2. Lancashire
3. Nottinghamshire
4. Warwickshire
5. Kent
6. Surrey
7. Middlesex
8. Somerset
9. Durham
10. Gloucestershire
11. Hampshire
12. Essex

Championship:
1. Glamorgan
2. Worcestershire
3. Northamptonshire
4. Leicestershire
5. Derbyshire
6. Sussex

I suppose an argument could be made for Glamorgan to be in the top flight as it’s the only Welsh county.

Not that many years ago Essex were rubbish. Liking this idea based on who is and who isn't in the 'premier' league isn't right. All Counties are equal surely, or should be, in the eyes of the cricketing authorities.
And I can see a comparison between a cricket Premier League and the football Premier League. Well, the football Premier League was created by and for greedy clubs, greedy football directors and greedy administrators. It's a league where the rich got richer and the devil take the hindmost, players from abroad have flocked here to feed off the tit and then to go back home again as rich as Croesus.
The Premier League hasn't benefitted football in general and it has made the England team any better, I reckon a cricket version will do the same.

There a well-known phrase in medicine that sports administrators should use that plainly the cricket administrators ignore. That phrase is "first do no harm".

 

[Aidan11]

As much as people don't want to hear it, there are too many counties. The talent in this country is so diluted because of this.

I disagree. Thanks to the addition of Durham as a First Class county, Collingwood, Harmison, Stokes, Wood, Onions etc played Test cricket for England. Had Durham still been a minor county they would have had to look elsewhere and may not have gained a professional contract.

18 counties are effectively 18 academies so the net can be spread further afield to capture young talent and turn them into test cricketers.

The main problem is there appears to be less talent around at present. The ECB overhaul should start at grass roots level and look into coaching methods, player techniques, scouting etc.

As Alec Stewart said, every time we're thrashed by the Aussies there's an inquest into the county game. There have been many changes over the years such as 4 day county matches, reducing the number of overs in a day, 2 divisions, central contracts....

Reducing counties is not the answer and it won't happen anyway. You need a 2/3 majority to vote it through and I can think of 8 counties who will say no as they may be the ones cast aside.

 

[Inside Forward]

I disagree. Thanks to the addition of Durham as a First Class county, Collingwood, Harmison, Stokes, Wood, Onions etc played Test cricket for England. Had Durham still been a minor county they would have had to look elsewhere and may not have gained a professional contract.

18 counties are effectively 18 academies so the net can be spread further afield to capture young talent and turn them into test cricketers.

The main problem is there appears to be less talent around at present. The ECB overhaul should start at grass roots level and look into coaching methods, player techniques, scouting etc.

As Alec Stewart said, every time we're thrashed by the Aussies there's an inquest into the county game. There have been many changes over the years such as 4 day county matches, reducing the number of overs in a day, 2 divisions, central contracts....

Reducing counties is not the answer and it won't happen anyway. You need a 2/3 majority to vote it through and I can think of 8 counties who will say no as they may be the ones cast aside.

They need 12 to vote it through, hence the 12 team Premier League. I doubt anyone who is invited would turn the offer down through fear of being placed in the second tier.

 

[brandon]

As much as people don't want to hear it, there are too many counties.

Mate, I stopped reading there*. We were number 1 in the world in all 3 formats not too long ago with the 18 counties we have now.

Honestly, the counties are NOT the problem with cricket in this country. Not at all.

Please don’t buy in to their propaganda.

*I will read it all, but had to get in there with this first .

there needs to be a real "Premier League and Championship" divide like there is in football to ensure the best are playing the best.

We’ve already got that. It’s been in place since 1999 (iirc) and the divisions are called ‘Division One & Division Two’

I think 3 divisions of 6 could work - the Sheffield Shield really brings together the best talent in Australia with only 6 teams and if we had the best 66 cricketers in the country playing across the 6 "PL" counties, it would make for excellent competition.

It wouldn’t work and it isn’t healthy comparing our system to what they have in other countries. The county game (just like the Aussie’s state system) has been in place here for hundreds of years. It works for a number of reasons, but in terms of talent it works because it’s so evenly spread out across the country. A system that purposefully devalues over half of its competitors (and therefore large swathes of the country) will have the exact opposite effect of getting the best talent to the top. It’s one thing to have the cream of the talent you know about rising to the top, but there will be hundreds, if not thousands of talented young cricketers who will never even get into the system in the first place if you do something that threatens the existence of some of your counties.

We already know this as fact, look at how many cricketers from Durham and Northumberland played for England prior to Durham becoming a First Class County. Then look how many have played since - it is night and day. If counties are allowed to fail and fold, you’re shrinking your talent pool immediately.

Again, in order for the competition to remain strong, the ECB need to allow England players to play for counties when they can, and counties need to bring in a real strong overseas international player to keep up standards.

Yes, couldn’t agree more with this and have long since been an advocate of it. The domestic schedule should closely follow the international schedule too, in the sense that when England are playing red ball, the counties should be.

Or we can always just carry on watching pretty average cricket with the odd headline act in each team, as groundsmen up and down the country produce green seamers so some dibbly dobbler can get 50+ wickets a season, leaving homegrown batters to look like absolute idiots when they face 90mph bowling in Australia.

I’m not sure how much county cricket you get to watch, but the groundsmen absolutely do not produce green seamers. The problem we do have, is that because the county red ball season is generally pushed into the margins of the season - normally half the games are played by May, with 5/6 more from mid August to late September - it’s impossible for groundstaff to produce good pitches for every game. What’s more, it’s the overhead/atmospheric conditions more often than not that dictates how the pitches play.

Ultimately, competition needs to improve. This can only be done by the best cricketers playing regularly against the best.

I keep coming back to it, but nobody has properly been able to give a logical contrary argument - the system we have got us to number 1 in the world not too long ago. There was nothing wrong with it then, so why now, when barely anything has changed is it such a problem?

Again, in terms of the national side, fortunes began changing in the early 2000’s very shortly after the split to two divisions occurred - winning in Pakistan for the first time in years, beating SA at home, then we beat the Aussies in 2005 and when we again beat them in 2009 it started a period of real dominance for our Test team beating practically everyone both home and away for the next 4 years.

It was often said by people within the game; players, coaches, pundits, both domestic and international that the important thing about the Championship structure was that because of promotion and relegation meaningful and competitive cricket was being played right up until the end of the season which provided an excellent breeding ground for mentally tough Test players. You had far too many dead games in a single division format because by mid-summer half the counties had nothing to play for. By going to three divisions, you’re totally demoralising some counties, who know they’re two years at best from the top tier.

Three divisions will kill some of the counties. As will a two tier system which intentionally devalues those teams not at the top table.

My big worry is that in the eyes of those making the decisions, that is completely intentional.

 

[Voice of fair play]

It's conveniently overlooked that the county championship has existed for 150+ years with 17+ teams with England producing competitive sides for the majority of that time

Yep, that was my point.

Why is there a need for a major restructure when a few, well thought through tweaks, will do the job ?


We didn’t need the T20 Blast AND The Hundred, but they won’t admit they got it wrong.

Real leadership is admitting a mistake and correcting it, rather than continue down the wrong path

We definitely need one of the above but not both, which one honestly not bothered about.

The balance has to be right, we need a shorter format as it is both entertaining and financially beneficial to all concerned and we need it to attract new kids to the game.

However at the same time the balance has to be right for the test side and TWO shorter formats is frankly not right for the game going forward in this country.

Slagging of the shorter format with words like ‘ hit and run’ and pyjama cricket is going to achieve nothing, and sorry guys, but still find it counterproductive and contrary to what fans clear want to watch which the IPL, blast and The Hundred undoubtedly prove!

We need to embrace the shorter format of the game and balance it with the need to produce quality test team.

Its needs to be a grown up conversation and accept that to go forward.

I am not sure whether the CC needs reforming or not, but don’t think we can blame it for the current problems think that unfair.

Cricket sometimes moves in circles and over my lifetime seen good England test teams and poor England test teams same with Australia, don’t think the CC itself has totally been the reason we produced good test teams but equally was not the reason when we had poor test teams.

Although there is no doubt surely no one could argue that too much white ball cricket is detrimental for the test team

It’s all about the correct balance!!

I disagree. Thanks to the addition of Durham as a First Class county, Collingwood, Harmison, Stokes, Wood, Onions etc played Test cricket for England. Had Durham still been a minor county they would have had to look elsewhere and may not have gained a professional contract.

18 counties are effectively 18 academies so the net can be spread further afield to capture young talent and turn them into test cricketers.

The main problem is there appears to be less talent around at present. The ECB overhaul should start at grass roots level and look into coaching methods, player techniques, scouting etc.

As Alec Stewart said, every time we're thrashed by the Aussies there's an inquest into the county game. There have been many changes over the years such as 4 day county matches, reducing the number of overs in a day, 2 divisions, central contracts....

Reducing counties is not the answer and it won't happen anyway. You need a 2/3 majority to vote it through and I can think of 8 counties who will say no as they may be the ones cast aside.

Think that excellent post apart from the first sentence, no one will ever be able to convince me that world stars such as Stokes, Harmison and Wood would not have got a professional contract at another county.

They were far too good not too.

 

[Parkside]

T20 has s been a welcoming addition to the cricket programme in that it has seen an improvement having brought about greater improvisation in all aspects batting, bowling and fielding. Can't see why it's condescending to refer to it as pyjamas cricket,the attire does look like pyjamas; likewise it is a game of " tip and run" amongst other run making methods. Finance wise Test cricket and T20 are of equal value financially, certainly in England. Also WIndies cricket would quickly become insolvent if not for revenue generated by English tourists for test matches there. The fundamental flaw of the ludicrous Hundred concept is the contradiction that it attracts a wider audience when it is only played in a handful of the largest centres of population.

 

[I am Boss]

You must be logged on to see media items

Seems the franchise bullies are out in force

 

[Voice of fair play]

T20 has s been a welcoming addition to the cricket programme in that it has seen an improvement having brought about greater improvisation in all aspects batting, bowling and fielding. Can't see why it's condescending to refer to it as pyjamas cricket,the attire does look like pyjamas; likewise it is a game of " tip and run" amongst other run making methods. Finance wise Test cricket and T20 are of equal value financially, certainly in England. Also WIndies cricket would quickly become insolvent if not for revenue generated by English tourists for test matches there. The fundamental flaw of the ludicrous Hundred concept is the contradiction that it attracts a wider audience when it is only played in a handful of the largest centres of population.

I think you have to be fair mate, as I think you know those terms you refer to are said in a condescending way by some?

As you have correctly said it has improved batting, bowling and fielding in particularly to high standard all round and some players like Buttler for example can score runs 360 degrees round the wicket and are simply a great watch and incredibly talented cricketer.

Equally I totally accept too much of the shorter format is without doubt having a adverse effect on test cricket and there is no way we should have two formats of it going forward.

 

[Twisted]

Think that excellent post apart from the first sentence, no one will ever be able to convince me that world stars such as Stokes, Harmison and Wood would not have got a professional contract at another county.

They were far too good not too.

isn't it a fairly common anecdote that steve harmison would never have left ashington never mind the north east if not for geoff cook?

it's one thing to say they were too good not to, it's another for them to have ever actually got the opportunity. they only ended up as international players after playing for england, and they achieved that by having huge succcess at their county. plenty of lads look class when they're bairns. there's no guranteed they'll go on to achieve owt, and i'd hazard a guess those odds get more and more remote the further they grow up from a professional outfit

 

[Parkside]

I think you have to be fair mate, as I think you know those terms you refer to are said in a condescending way by some?

As you have correctly said it has improved batting, bowling and fielding in particularly to high standard all round and some players like Buttler for example can score runs 360 degrees round the wicket and are simply a great watch and incredibly talented cricketer.

Equally I totally accept too much of the shorter format is without doubt having a adverse effect on test cricket and there is no way we should have two formats of it going forward.

Of course it's said in a condescending way by some but what's wrong about that. T20 isn't attractive to some but I suspect it's the rasamataz that accompanies it i.e. blaring music and loud coloured clothing rather than the cricket itself that they find repulsive. After all 20 over cricket had existed at club level for years before it was regarded as T20; never met anyone who found it in anyway repulsive.

 

[Voice of fair play]

Of course it's said in a condescending way by some but what's wrong about that. T20 isn't attractive to some but I suspect it's the rasamataz that accompanies it i.e. blaring music and loud coloured clothing rather than the cricket itself that they find repulsive. After all 20 over cricket had existed at club level for years before it was regarded as T20; never met anyone who found it in anyway repulsive.

Absolutely could not agree more that it is the rasamataz that accompanies it that puts people off it ,but I think that clouds peoples judgement of the skills involved in it which is high and think great entertainment.

I myself am only interested in the cricket and have said for years that it is only a extension of club 20 over cup cricket that existed years before and was also very entertaining.

I don’t like the rasamataz either but I am realistic enough that cricket needs to compete with other modern interests and if rasamataz attracts badly needed new blood to the game I am more than willing to put up with it for the longevity of the game!!

At the end of the day as long as people behave themselves and don’t cross a line nothing wrong with a bit of that as sport is about people enjoying themselves is it not?

As for you initial question I think what is wrong with the comments is that I find it disrespectful to the incredible highly skilled talent on show to call it ‘Mickey mouse’ etc.

isn't it a fairly common anecdote that steve harmison would never have left ashington never mind the north east if not for geoff cook?

it's one thing to say they were too good not to, it's another for them to have ever actually got the opportunity. they only ended up as international players after playing for england, and they achieved that by having huge succcess at their county. plenty of lads look class when they're bairns. there's no guranteed they'll go on to achieve owt, and i'd hazard a guess those odds get more and more remote the further they grow up from a professional outfit

Yeah fair enough I certainly get your general point especially your last sentence.

But not for the particular players I mentioned there is no way in the world imo that Ben Stokes would not have got a professional contract at another county

 

[brandon]

Think that excellent post apart from the first sentence, no one will ever be able to convince me that world stars such as Stokes, Harmison and Wood would not have got a professional contract at another county.

This again

How many lads from Durham & Northumberland played for England before Durham became a first class county?

And how many have since??

Coincidence? Of course it isn’t.

But not for the particular players I mentioned there is no way in the world imo that Ben Stokes would not have got a professional contract at another county

Nobody else but Durham wanted him. He’d probably be playing Rugby League now if Durham didn’t exist.

Think that excellent post apart from the first sentence, no one will ever be able to convince me that world stars such as Stokes, Harmison and Wood would not have got a professional contract at another county.

They were far too good not too.

He himself credits David Boon as the man who was largely responsible for his professional career. The same David Boon who was at Durham between 1997-99. Don’t believe me? Fine. Listen to the man himself with this article and direct quotes:

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Oh and without Harmy, there’d be no Mark Wood - he alluded to that fact himself, again with direct quotes in Stu Rayner’s book ‘Four Trophies and a Funeral’.

 

[Parkside]

isn't it a fairly common anecdote that steve harmison would never have left ashington never mind the north east if not for geoff cook?

it's one thing to say they were too good not to, it's another for them to have ever actually got the opportunity. they only ended up as international players after playing for england, and they achieved that by having huge succcess at their county. plenty of lads look class when they're bairns. there's no guranteed they'll go on to achieve owt, and i'd hazard a guess those odds get more and more remote the further they grow up from a professional outfit

It's more than anecdote, Harmi is quoted only last week in the Times as saying how mixed up he was as a kid and he owes his whole cricket career to Geoff Cook's counsel, but for him he'd had no desire to play cricket,let alone make a career from it.Likewise with Wood- Ashington is not exactly awash with cricket scouts.
,Stokes might well have made a career from cricket away from Durham, in New Zealand where he was returning but for,again, the intervention of Geoff Cook.
Since going 1st class, Durham have produced more test cricketers than they had in the previous 100+ years.

 

[Voice of fair play]

Of course players from all clubs and all sports having nothing but praise for the coaches who helped them start their careers and rightly soo.

Professional sport will be a wash with players rightly praising people who set them on their career.

And of course the players mentioned should be praising Durham Boon, Cook and co

And of course Durham should be praised to the absolute hilt for the work they done with the players mentioned and the players they have produced for England.

Durham have been brilliant in that regard and nobody would dream of saying anything else so not sure why the need to be defensive on them.

But the point remains a world star like Ben Stokes would have surely got a professional cricket contract with the talent he has if Durham had not been first on the scene personally I think that is obvious.

 

[brandon]

But the point remains a world star like Ben Stokes would have surely got a professional cricket contract with the talent he has if Durham had not been first on the scene personally I think that is obvious.

Unbelievable

You’re just trolling now.

‘World star’ ffs.

 

[Twisted]

But the point remains a world star like Ben Stokes would have surely got a professional cricket contract with the talent he has if Durham had not been first on the scene personally I think that is obvious.

I just don't agree tbh. All the talent in the world isn't worth as much as opportunity and i think you're underestimating how rare it is for the stars to align for careers to be made. I'm sure there's players more talented at certain age groups who never got the chance, because there's certainly those with far less who end up representing their country, just look at some of the average plodders who got their chances ahead of onions & rushy as a durham related example

 

[Parkside]

Voice of fair play said:
But the point remains a world star like Ben Stokes would have surely got a professional cricket contract with the talent he has if Durham had not been first on the scene personally I think that is obvious.

 

[Voice of fair play]

Unbelievable

You’re just trolling now.

‘World star’ ffs.

I just don't agree tbh. All the talent in the world isn't worth as much as opportunity and i think you're underestimating how rare it is for the stars to align for careers to be made. I'm sure there's players more talented at certain age groups who never got the chance, because there's certainly those with far less who end up representing their country, just look at some of the average plodders who got their chances ahead of onions & rushy as a durham related example

As said before mate of course I take your points, and of course what you say will have happened.

But people like Stokes were soo good would have got a professional contract whatever imo.

It’s certainly fair to say because of Durham he got his opportunity earlier but not imo fair to say he would have not picked up by another county further down the line with his clear and undoubtedly talent