Chinese Wet Markets



MrOompapa said:
...

It smacks of western privilege. We never paid for colonizing and brutalizing half the world.
Click to expand...
Most working class westerners weren’t the beneficiaries of historic empires. The £££ went to the top although the commoners might have had a library, town hall or swimming pool built for them. I doubt that my relatives in County Durham pit houses had any ‘privilege’, as much as a Chinese peasant hasn’t now.

We can learn from history so that we can avoid repeating the mistakes.
 
MrOompapa said:
China dominates both of these organizations so not a chance in a million years.

Also, why should the majority of an entire country be judged by the actions of a minority?

The logic of this is on par with saying Islam as a whole should be made to account and apologize for terrorism.

It's not fair.
Click to expand...

If you are correct then action needs to be taken by the rest of the world somehow to minimise or ideally eradicate the chance of another pandemic.

I've made it quite clear that I'm not judging the whole country by the actions of a minority but if the safety of the rest of the world is put at risk by said minority then to me there is little option but for the rest of the world to put pressure on the Chinese government to clean up their act.

China needs to be transparent about his situation as I can't imagine the majority of the Chinese population are happy to be put at risk by practices that have no place in the 21st century. If the same situations are prevalent in other countries then they should be taken to task as well.

I'm going to ignore your Islam/terrorism analogy because it is specious.

The rest of the world needs to do something about this and quickly, because as I said before, the next species jumping pandemic could well be apocalyptic - and that's definitely not fair on the Chinese or the rest of us.
 
This may seem very right wing, but when you look at the human and economic cost of this whole thing and the fact that it isn't the first to spring from there and no doubt wont be the last... Modern global society is a club and the world may have to decide there are certain basic rules, and if you want to be in that club you need to follow the rules. Eating weird shit like Pangolins that have come directly from the wild and feed on forever disease ridden bats. If we had chosen to or been able to cut China off at the turn of the year how many 10's of thousands of people around the world would still be alive and how many 100's thousands, and rising, would still have jobs. Decisions need to be made, it's not about blame, it's simply about preventing a repeat.
 
McMackem said:
This may seem very right wing, but when you look at the human and economic cost of this whole thing and the fact that it isn't the first to spring from there and no doubt wont be the last... Modern global society is a club and the world may have to decide there are certain basic rules, and if you want to be in that club you need to follow the rules. Eating weird shit like Pangolins that have come directly from the wild and feed on forever disease ridden bats. If we had chosen to or been able to cut China off at the turn of the year how many 10's of thousands of people around the world would still be alive and how many 100's thousands, and rising, would still have jobs. Decisions need to be made.
Click to expand...

Except when it comes to invading, bombing and subjugating other countries through sanctions of course.

The west make the rules for their own interests, and don't abide by them.

People demand China is punished because it invokes a sense of deflection and superiority against them, the imagery of an "inferior, barbaric other" which we have a divine right to "civilize", but excuse centuries worth of western crimes.

China is not responsible for the west's inability and complacency in preparing for a major epidemic, no other country in Asia bordering China had it as bad as us.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
MrOompapa said:
Except when it comes to invading, bombing and subjugating other countries through sanctions of course.

The west make the rules for their own interests, and don't abide by them.

People demand China is punished because it invokes a sense of deflection and superiority against them, the imagery of an "inferior, barbaric other" which we have a divine right to "civilize", but excuse centuries worth of western crimes.

China is not responsible for the west's inability and complacency in preparing for a major epidemic, no other country in Asia bordering China had it as bad as us.
Click to expand...
How far back can we hold a grudge for? Can we seek reparations from the Roman Empire, Normans etc.?

Sunderland should ask for reparations from the Luftwaffe.
 
Stevie Freestein II said:
How far back can we hold a grudge for? Can we seek reparations from the Roman Empire, Normans etc.?

Sunderland should ask for reparations from the Luftwaffe.
Click to expand...

For us we might see it as a joke, but for countries who have been victims of it the sentiment is a bit different.

Koreans today still argue Japan should pay for WW2.

But what about of course, modern issues like Iraq? We should pay for what we have repeatedly done to their country, no?
 
MrOompapa said:
Except when it comes to invading, bombing and subjugating other countries through sanctions of course.

The west make the rules for their own interests, and don't abide by them.

People demand China is punished because it invokes a sense of deflection and superiority against them, the imagery of an "inferior, barbaric other" which we have a divine right to "civilize", but excuse centuries worth of western crimes.

China is not responsible for the west's inability and complacency in preparing for a major epidemic, no other country in Asia bordering China had it as bad as us.
Click to expand...

All fair points, I couldn't be further from blaming China and there should be no witch hunt, but nevertheless if some basic steps stop a repeat the world needs to at least have a conversation about the practices that are repeatedly spawning this. FWIW I think we acted way to lightly way too late, especially over London - even New York talked about a quarantine if not going ahead, but the idea of cutting off London! If it had been Liverpool or Glasgow it would have happened. But it's not just about the West - middle East and African countries simply can't cope with this repeatedly. Maybe air travel needs to be less freely available then, I don't know, but acting like this was a weird one-off is a bad choice.
 
MrOompapa said:
For us we might see it as a joke, but for countries who have been victims of it the sentiment is a bit different.

Koreans today still argue Japan should pay for WW2.

But what about of course, modern issues like Iraq? We should pay for what we have repeatedly done to their country, no?
Click to expand...
I don’t see it as a joke at all. I’ll answer your questions when you answer mine.
 
MrOompapa said:
Except when it comes to invading, bombing and subjugating other countries through sanctions of course.

The west make the rules for their own interests, and don't abide by them.

People demand China is punished because it invokes a sense of deflection and superiority against them, the imagery of an "inferior, barbaric other" which we have a divine right to "civilize", but excuse centuries worth of western crimes.

China is not responsible for the west's inability and complacency in preparing for a major epidemic, no other country in Asia bordering China had it as bad as us.
Click to expand...

I generally like your contributions because they are usually well informed and passionate but that doesn't prevent you from spouting utter bollocks.

No one wants your average Chinese person punished - we in the west just don't want to die from a virus upon which we have absolutely fuck all control.

And now you are asking us to accept that it's the west's fault because we weren't sufficiently prepared for a pandemic that emanated from China?

Have you been hit on the head with a pangolin?
 
Pancho said:
I generally like your contributions because they are usually well informed and passionate but that doesn't prevent you from spouting utter bollocks.

No one wants your average Chinese person punished - we in the west just don't want to die from a virus upon which we have absolutely fuck all control.

And now you are asking us to accept that it's the west's fault because we weren't sufficiently prepared for a pandemic that emanated from China?

Have you been hit on the head with a pangolin?
Click to expand...

So you don't think there is more we could have done? A lot of the rhetoric of blaming China, especially from individuals on the right, has been largely motivated by political deflection and nationalist venting.

My argument is this: Countries in Asia who had experience in fighting modern pandemics, which includes China itself, Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan, South Korea, Vietnam, Japan, Thailand, Singapore and others have not suffered the way they have. They were able to contain it early. None of these countries are playing the blame game either.

We however in the west were culturally and politically complacent because we conceived ourselves that disease outbreaks were a "foreign" and "oriental" thing which our civilized way of life made us effectively immune from. People did not heed early warnings and took action until they were forced.

Thus we were hit harder than Asia itself, and our outlook is to sit an ivory tower and preach blame to China when we could have done much more.

It's stemmed from the belief that in relative prosperity we take a lot of things for granted, thus when tragedy hits us we demand "justice" from soneone else than to consider our own position because we consider such a thing to be "abnormal" rather than to accept it as a possibility and always make sufficient contingency for it.

It's wrong, and that is my point.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
MrOompapa said:
From two days ago

nypost.com

China and Vietnam finally ban wildlife trade due to coronavirus

If there can be a bright side to the coronavirus pandemic, which started in a “wet market” in Wuhan that sold live animals in deplorable conditions, it has finally spurred China and Vietnam to ban …
nypost.com nypost.com
Click to expand...

In January, China imposed a ban on all farming and consumption of “terrestrial wildlife of important ecological, scientific and social value,” which is expected to be signed into law later this year.
Click to expand...

Sincerely hope this is true, however a complete ban may well see a boost in black market trading. For every silver lining there's always a cloud...
 
MrOompapa said:
So you don't think there is more we could have done? A lot of the rhetoric of blaming China, especially from individuals on the right, has been largely motivated by political deflection and nationalist venting.

My argument is this: Countries in Asia who had experience in fighting modern pandemics, which includes China itself, Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan, South Korea, Vietnam, Japan, Thailand, Singapore and others have not suffered the way they have. They were able to contain it early. None of these countries are playing the blame game either.

We however in the west were culturally and politically complacent because we conceived ourselves that disease outbreaks were a "foreign" and "oriental" thing which our civilized way of life made us effectively immune from. People did not heed early warnings and took action until they were forced.

Thus we were hit harder than Asia itself, and our outlook is to sit an ivory tower and preach blame to China when we could have done much more.

It's stemmed from the belief that in relative prosperity we take a lot of things for granted, thus when tragedy hits us we demand "justice" from soneone else than to consider our own position because we consider such a thing to be "abnormal" rather than to accept it as a possibility and always make sufficient contingency for it.

It's wrong, and that is my point.
Click to expand...

Of course the West could have been better prepared but that's a completely different argument.

If the EU, the UK and particularly the USA have any sense whatsoever, once this virus is under control, there should be open and transparent public enquiries to expose any weaknesses in the collective responses and to ensure that we are better prepared for the next pandemic.

But that doesn't alter the fact that all of those actions are downstream of the problem and it's just illogical to ignore the fact that the problem emanated in China.

In early 19th century London when 1000's were dying with cholera, the solution wasn't better preparedness or treatments but the identification of the cause of the disease and the complete modernisation of the city's sewerage system.

Wanting China to accept ultimate responsibility for this pandemic and pressuring them to do everything in their power to prevent a repetition isn't westerner's deflecting or wanting privileged justice, it's just simple common sense.

The same logic would apply to any country if lax standards were putting the rest of the world at risk - be it sloppy nuclear safety in Russia or North Korea or the horrendous intensive factory farming methods in the USA - it's beholden upon the rest of the world to put pressure on those countries to clean up their acts - because if we don't then the rest of the world is continually at risk.
 
MrOompapa said:
My argument is this: Countries in Asia who had experience in fighting modern pandemics, which includes China itself, Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan, South Korea, Vietnam, Japan, Thailand, Singapore and others have not suffered the way they have. They were able to contain it early. None of these countries are playing the blame game either.
Click to expand...
I don't think Japan is in the clear. They have had a jump in cases and, from what I read today, they are going to get more and are considering more stringent controlling measures.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
MrOompapa said:
So you don't think there is more we could have done? A lot of the rhetoric of blaming China, especially from individuals on the right, has been largely motivated by political deflection and nationalist venting.

My argument is this: Countries in Asia who had experience in fighting modern pandemics, which includes China itself, Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan, South Korea, Vietnam, Japan, Thailand, Singapore and others have not suffered the way they have. They were able to contain it early. None of these countries are playing the blame game either.

We however in the west were culturally and politically complacent because we conceived ourselves that disease outbreaks were a "foreign" and "oriental" thing which our civilized way of life made us effectively immune from. People did not heed early warnings and took action until they were forced.

Thus we were hit harder than Asia itself, and our outlook is to sit an ivory tower and preach blame to China when we could have done much more.

It's stemmed from the belief that in relative prosperity we take a lot of things for granted, thus when tragedy hits us we demand "justice" from soneone else than to consider our own position because we consider such a thing to be "abnormal" rather than to accept it as a possibility and always make sufficient contingency for it.

It's wrong, and that is my point.
Click to expand...

Most of the citizens of those countries put their faith in the country/government to protect them. They did not suffer because the people are subservient to their Government overlords and were willing to be tracked, traced, welded into their apartment buildings for their greater good.

If anything needs to change it's the Asian way of life - they need to be able to hold their government to account themselves. The government that they trust to protect them has failed and lied. That's where the change needs to be.

I doubt your everyday Chinese person stops off for a couple of bats on their way home like I do a pizza.
Lexingtongue said:
I don't think Japan is in the clear. They have had a jump in cases and, from what I read today, they are going to get more and are considering more stringent controlling measures.
Click to expand...

Don't be surprised if Japan have been found to be lying because they wanted to save the Olympics.
 
Brian Griffin said:
Most of the citizens of those countries put their faith in the country/government to protect them. They did not suffer because the people are subservient to their Government overlords and were willing to be tracked, traced, welded into their apartment buildings for their greater good.

If anything needs to change it's the Asian way of life - they need to be able to hold their government to account themselves. The government that they trust to protect them has failed and lied. That's where the change needs to be.
Click to expand...

South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand and Singapore are democracies.
 
Pancho said:
I generally like your contributions because they are usually well informed and passionate but that doesn't prevent you from spouting utter bollocks.

No one wants your average Chinese person punished - we in the west just don't want to die from a virus upon which we have absolutely fuck all control.

And now you are asking us to accept that it's the west's fault because we weren't sufficiently prepared for a pandemic that emanated from China?

Have you been hit on the head with a pangolin?
Click to expand...
you're wasting your breath trying to reason with him/her. he/she sees things only one way.

i said last week my idea of sanctions would be to have every single container that comes out of china disinfected before loading and inspected afterwards before they even leave their shores. all done by an independent body. this is apparently unreasonable because china's economy is vast, the rest of the world relies too much on them and would be too much of a clart on.
 

Back
Top