Black Lives Matter

[sir rowell cummins]

i don't normally disagree with you but Capitalism in any form helps to creates society. Whether that is for the good or bad of the populace.. Without it, there would be no society, just an economic breakdown, law and order, then chaos. I don't think even you would want theat..

I’m not arguing some massive overthrow but there are a lot of losers in the way things are currently being run and those with the biggest struggles are shown little care.

I've got my own mind and dont pander to other people.

I'm a terrible person for not showing sympathy to a career criminal?

I've never put a gun to a pregnant woman's stomach...

He was a scum bag... I agree he shouldn't have died the way he did but am I bothered that hes gone?

Nope..

So do you think all criminals should be killed ?

Why do you think society is tougher on them?

I know this sounds like a cliche but I’ve lived and worked in Manchester a long time and I have a lot of black mates. One in the police force and he isn’t a fan of BLM so not some lefty do gooder but struggled with racist comments in the early days and missed opportunities he should have had access to - it’s different now - another mate ex army who suffered racism who found the whole BLM protests hard to hear and emotional because of the racist abuse he had suffered as kid and even from his sergeant in the army continually sanctioning him to see if he was on the right side. These to me are normal lads, great lads, proper mates strong characters who’ve had tough times. Not chip on your shoulder bullshitters. We had a whatsapp convo the other day and they were half joking about the racism in school - from kids, parents of white kids who wouldn’t have them as mates and worse from teachers - some of the stuff that was said - if you weren’t made of strong stuff .... They’ve had to deal with things I’ve never had to without any doubt and they’ve got brains and good families. Without that kids must suffer. I have to say also I work with young people, many offenders,
in Manchester so I see a lot of life.

 

[AndyH]

Do you think capitalism in its current form is creating a fair society ? You seem to be arguing to keep things as they are ?

A bit off topic like.
capitalism in any form won't create a fair society, fairness is not what the system is designed for. Capitalism allows for every person to fulfil their potential and as all people don't have the same potential it will never be fair.
I would certainly argue not to move away away from capitalism as it works better than anything that has ever been. In a free market economy the gap between the rich and poor will continue to widen but the poor still get richer.

Socialist economies do not work, they always have failed and they always fail because they are in direct conflict with human nature. Socialism multiplied by time equals catastrophic economic failure and no matter how much the lefties want that not to be true it is.
If you think it's a good idea to reduce the gap between the rich and poor by making the rich poor and the poor even poorer than vote to bring down capitalism.

 

[sir rowell cummins]

A bit off topic like.
capitalism in any form won't create a fair society, fairness is not what the system is designed for. Capitalism allows for every person to fulfil their potential and as all people don't have the same potential it will never be fair.
I would certainly argue not to move away away from capitalism as it works better than anything that has ever been. In a free market economy the gap between the rich and poor will continue to widen but the poor still get richer.

Socialist economies do not work, they always have failed and they always fail because they are in direct conflict with human nature. Socialism multiplied by time equals catastrophic economic failure and no matter how much the lefties want that not to be true it is.
If you think it's a good idea to reduce the gap between the rich and poor by making the rich poor and the poor even poorer than vote to bring down capitalism.

Some of the rich should be poorer tbh there’s enough cash floating around the higher echelons. Poverty is a key factor In determining criminality and our current system creates poverty . I’m not saying I agree 100% with the views of the movement but they also have a point about some things.

 

[AndyH]

I know this sounds like a cliche but I’ve lived and worked in Manchester a long time and I have a lot of black mates. One in the police force and he isn’t a fan of BLM so not some lefty do gooder but struggled with racist comments in the early days and missed opportunities he should have had access to - it’s different now - another mate ex army who suffered racism who found the whole BLM protests hard to hear and emotional because of the racist abuse he had suffered as kid and even from his sergeant in the army continually sanctioning him to see if he was on the right side. These to me are normal lads, great lads, proper mates strong characters who’ve had tough times. Not chip on your shoulder bullshitters. We had a whatsapp convo the other day and they were half joking about the racism in school - from kids, parents of white kids who wouldn’t have them as mates and worse from teachers - some of the stuff that was said - if you weren’t made of strong stuff .... They’ve had to deal with things I’ve never had to without any doubt and they’ve got brains and good families. Without that kids must suffer. I have to say also I work with young people, many offenders,
in Manchester so I see a lot of life.

As a starting point lets taken as a given that we both agree racism is a bad thing, racists comments are also a bad thing and generally being shitty and hurtful to other people is a bad thing.

I also had a black friend at school who indeed did suffer racists comments, boo f***ing hoo.
I also had a friend that was fat and used to take more abuse and more humiliating abuse because of his weight.
There was also a lad that had appalling acne called pizza which let me tell you wasn't the name on his birth certificate.
There was a ginger kid that used to get slaughtered and a lad camp as fuck that didn't get an easy ride.
The lad that my parents didn't want me to play with was a scruff from a bad family ( he turned out really well)

Everyone suffers prejudiced throughout their life and have to put up with people saying hurtful things. Groups like BLM convincing black people that all the obstacles in their lives are because of their skin colour do not help them, all it days is make people that could achieve not achieve because they don't try.

In this country there are no systemic obstacles in the way of a black person to prevent them from achieving their potential, they have equality of opportunity.
Yes they have to deal with the individual prejudice or people, so do i, so do you, so does everybody.

Some of the rich should be poorer tbh there’s enough cash floating around the higher echelons. Poverty is a key factor In determining criminality and our current system creates poverty . I’m not saying I agree 100% with the views of the movement but they also have a point about some things.

making the rich poorer doesn't help the poor, making the poor less poor helps the poor and for that you need capitalism not Marxism.
Poverty isn't a key factor when it comes to violent crime which is the kind of crime people have been discussing on this thread. Groups like BLM generate violent crime because of the message they give out.

 

[sir rowell cummins]

As a starting point lets taken as a given that we both agree racism is a bad thing, racists comments are also a bad thing and generally being shitty and hurtful to other people is a bad thing.

I also had a black friend at school who indeed did suffer racists comments, boo f***ing hoo.
I also had a friend that was fat and used to take more abuse and more humiliating abuse because of his weight.
There was also a lad that had appalling acne called pizza which let me tell you wasn't the name on his birth certificate.
There was a ginger kid that used to get slaughtered and a lad camp as fuck that didn't get an easy ride.
The lad that my parents didn't want me to play with was a scruff from a bad family ( he turned out really well)

Everyone suffers prejudiced throughout their life and have to put up with people saying hurtful things. Groups like BLM convincing black people that all the obstacles in their lives are because of their skin colour do not help them, all it days is make people that could achieve not achieve because they don't try.

In this country there are no systemic obstacles in the way of a black person to prevent them from achieving their potential, they have equality of opportunity.
Yes they have to deal with the individual prejudice or people, so do i, so do you, so does everybody.

So why do you think then that there are higher rates of unemployment, less black people in executive positions etc etc etc if there are no systemic obstacles ?? Because they are thicker? Lazier ? is cultural ? What is it then ? I'd say based on Hancock's abject performance we should keep all white mags out of positions of power and influence.
So some overweight people get bullied for being overweight AND BLACK. Black people with ACNE get it twice as bad. Some people haven't got the back up or resilience to overcome it - whether that be racism or other forms of bullying or discrimination - and they're the ones who need support whatever the background. That doesn't exclude the black people it affects who suffer racism. Are you advocating survival of the fittest ? It is ok to be kind and support people not just be a ruthless ****.

 

[AndyH]

So why do you think then that there are higher rates of unemployment, less black people in executive positions etc etc etc if there are no systemic obstacles ?? Because they are thicker? Lazier ? is cultural ? What is it then ? I'd say based on Hancock's abject performance we should keep all white mags out of positions of power and influence.
So some overweight people get bullied for being overweight AND BLACK. Black people with ACNE get it twice as bad. Some people haven't got the back up or resilience to overcome it - whether that be racism or other forms of bullying or discrimination - and they're the ones who need support whatever the background. That doesn't exclude the black people it affects who suffer racism. Are you advocating survival of the fittest ? It is ok to be kind and support people not just be a ruthless ****.

 

[sir rowell cummins]

As a starting point lets taken as a given that we both agree racism is a bad thing, racists comments are also a bad thing and generally being shitty and hurtful to other people is a bad thing.

I also had a black friend at school who indeed did suffer racists comments, boo f***ing hoo.
I also had a friend that was fat and used to take more abuse and more humiliating abuse because of his weight.
There was also a lad that had appalling acne called pizza which let me tell you wasn't the name on his birth certificate.
There was a ginger kid that used to get slaughtered and a lad camp as fuck that didn't get an easy ride.
The lad that my parents didn't want me to play with was a scruff from a bad family ( he turned out really well)

Everyone suffers prejudiced throughout their life and have to put up with people saying hurtful things. Groups like BLM convincing black people that all the obstacles in their lives are because of their skin colour do not help them, all it days is make people that could achieve not achieve because they don't try.

In this country there are no systemic obstacles in the way of a black person to prevent them from achieving their potential, they have equality of opportunity.
Yes they have to deal with the individual prejudice or people, so do i, so do you, so does everybody.

making the rich poorer doesn't help the poor, making the poor less poor helps the poor and for that you need capitalism not Marxism.
Poverty isn't a key factor when it comes to violent crime which is the kind of crime people have been discussing on this thread. Groups like BLM generate violent crime because of the message they give out.

Poverty is a massive factor in violent crime FFS. You're just making things up to win an argument. I work in youth justice man and guess what i work with youth violence. I'm reporting on a child right now - single mum with mental health difficulties, high crime area, offered money to hold packages and firearm for adult criminal and gets his family food with it. If you don't believe me read about it. Everyone in poverty isn't a violent criminal, but alongside other risk factors it is one of the causes of vulnerability. It would be my specialist subject on mastermind mate with respect.

 

[AndyH]

So why do you think then that there are higher rates of unemployment, less black people in executive positions etc etc etc if there are no systemic obstacles ?? Because they are thicker? Lazier ? is cultural ? What is it then ? I'd say based on Hancock's abject performance we should keep all white mags out of positions of power and influence.
So some overweight people get bullied for being overweight AND BLACK. Black people with ACNE get it twice as bad. Some people haven't got the back up or resilience to overcome it - whether that be racism or other forms of bullying or discrimination - and they're the ones who need support whatever the background. That doesn't exclude the black people it affects who suffer racism. Are you advocating survival of the fittest ? It is ok to be kind and support people not just be a ruthless ****.

I'm not sure, higher rates of unemployment are probably mostly cultural and exaggerated by the fact that many black people think there are obstacles that are not there so think why bother trying.

Yer sure you can get a black fat person that has two things about him that people show prejudice toward. you can also get a fat, spotty ginger kid who has three...... we can go on forever here can't we.
Like I say boo fuckin hoo.

 

[molthemackem]

I’m not arguing some massive overthrow but there are a lot of losers in the way things are currently being run and those with the biggest struggles are shown little care.


So do you think all criminals should be killed ?

Last point first.... don't be silly. There's always going to be lots of losers and winners in life marra..

Like life there are those you meet who need help along the way. I speak from personal experience from a job I held years ago, part time mind you, working for the probation service. I found back then there where those you could help and there were those no amount of help you could give was enough. Then there were those who took the bull by its horns and made something out of a bad situation and got on with life,some made good too.. In my time with the PS, I found only one person who i would say was badly done too.

I'm probably one of the fortunate ones who have had a good life and have tried to do my best to help less fortunate than myself or family. I've been very lucky in that every job ,bar one, I've have had, I've had jobs that I would have willing worked for nothing. a bit like owning a trainset and playing everyday with it. I've also employed people in business'es I used to own, some of whom you could trust to get on with the work and graft. Others, a complete waste of time. Those didn't last long and were the first to moan about being laid off.

I kept people on in work, when there was none, when I really should have let them go( some get on this board) but I felt I was doing the right thing at the time. I know different now but that is based on life experience.. I've gave money away to good causes and helped people who really needed a bit help along the way. I've even gave our club lots of freebies with work and labour, in fact they still owe me money, but at the time (Howard Wilkinson) they needed helping out which I gladly gave. Basically, everyone has the chance to do good and give a little to help anyone, even a business but only if the people you are helping help themselves too..

I found out myself a little later in my life what its like to be on the bottom but even then I had the will and energy to bounce back.

 

[AndyH]

Poverty is a massive factor in violent crime FFS. You're just making things up to win an argument. I work in youth justice man and guess what i work with youth violence. I'm reporting on a child right now - single mum with mental health difficulties, high crime area, offered money to hold packages and firearm for adult criminal and gets his family food with it. If you don't believe me read about it. Everyone in poverty isn't a violent criminal, but alongside other risk factors it is one of the causes of vulnerability. It would be my specialist subject on mastermind mate with respect.

Poverty isn't a factor in violent crime, this has been firmly established in social science for a long time, i'm not making things up to win the argument i'm using facts instead of emotion.
If you work in youth justice and work with youth violence it would probably pay to know what causes it. You can't fix a problem if you don't know what is causing it.

Violent crime isn't caused by poverty it's caused when young males are unable to see a route in which they can increase their social standing.
Women do not commit violent crime when they are poor, why not if poverty is the route cause.
If you take a region where there is absolute object poverty violent crime is low.

Violent crime is a result of disparity, its caused by the gap between the haves and the haves not. The have nots do not need to be poor, they can have more than enough to get buy on, they can be very comfortable.
Men have a biological drive to try and climb the social standing ladder. When that is blocked or perceived to be blocked or the route is too steep and considered not attainable they create a new ladder and that is the violent criminal one. they go for dominance through fear and violence instead of wealth.
The poor people in this country would be considered very well off by much of the world, the object poverty line for the world is surviving on less than £1.53 per day.
Violent crime is higher on a rough council estate in this country than it is in a village in Africa where they live on less then 1.53 a week, therefore poverty per se is not the cause it is the disparity and the need of human males to stand out more than the bloke next to them so they get laid.

 

[sir rowell cummins]

Last point first.... don't be silly. There's always going to be lots of losers and winners in life marra..

Like life there are those you meet who need help along the way. I speak from personal experience from a job I held years ago, part time mind you, working for the probation service. I found back then there where those you could help and there were those no amount of help you could give was enough. Then there were those who took the bull by its horns and made something out of a bad situation and got on with life,some made good too.. In my time with the PS, I found only one person who i would say was badly done too.

I'm probably one of the fortunate ones who have had a good life and have tried to do my best to help less fortunate than myself or family. I've been very lucky in that every job ,bar one, I've have had, I've had jobs that I would have willing worked for nothing. a bit like owning a trainset and playing everyday with it. I've also employed people in business'es I used to own, some of whom you could trust to get on with the work and graft. Others, a complete waste of time. Those didn't last long and were the first to moan about being laid off.

I kept people on in work, when there was none, when I really should have let them go( some get on this board) but I felt I was doing the right thing at the time. I know different now but that is based on life experience.. I've gave money away to good causes and helped people who really needed a bit help along the way. I've even gave our club lots of freebies with work and labour, in fact they still owe me money, but at the time (Howard Wilkinson) they needed helping out which I gladly gave. Basically, everyone has the chance to do good and give a little to help anyone, even a business but only if the people you are helping help themselves too..

I found out myself a little later in my life what its like to be on the bottom but even then I had the will and energy to bounce back.

Look I know you’re a balanced bloke I can tell by your posts. I do work with some of the most troubled kids probably in the UK I don’t know how you’d score it, but I do know for any I see the expectations of modern life with the trauma they’ve had isn’t realistic. The timescales we set aren’t realistic for the people inside that mind. Of course there are some who won’t change but there are one who want better and can’t and society seems less empathetic these days. There is plenty of cash in the world but we still we can’t afford to help vulnerable people. My experience of many police is that they are caring even with criminals and most want more support services so they don’t have to arrest them and I’ve had many a conversation with white police who recognise how tough it is or black kids in certain places but youth services have largely gone and the caring adults they had have gone with it. I don’t just think but I know this has adversely affected inner city kids which by nature are often ethnic minority and it’s a false economy. We will all pay for it wherever that lack of support pops up in the system.

Poverty isn't a factor in violent crime, this has been firmly established in social science for a long time, i'm not making things up to win the argument i'm using facts instead of emotion.
If you work in youth justice and work with youth violence it would probably pay to know what causes it. You can't fix a problem if you don't know what is causing it.

Violent crime isn't caused by poverty it's caused when young males are unable to see a route in which they can increase their social standing.
Women do not commit violent crime when they are poor, why not if poverty is the route cause.
If you take a region where there is absolute object poverty violent crime is low.

Violent crime is a result of disparity, its caused by the gap between the haves and the haves not. The have nots do not need to be poor, they can have more than enough to get buy on, they can be very comfortable.
Men have a biological drive to try and climb the social standing ladder. When that is blocked or perceived to be blocked or the route is too steep and considered not attainable they create a new ladder and that is the violent criminal one. they go for dominance through fear and violence instead of wealth.
The poor people in this country would be considered very well off by much of the world, the object poverty line for the world is surviving on less than £1.53 per day.
Violent crime is higher on a rough council estate in this country than it is in a village in Africa where they live on less then 1.53 a week, therefore poverty per se is not the cause it is the disparity and the need of human males to stand out more than the bloke next to them so they get laid.

So show me where you got this evidence from?

 

[Poacher]

I’m not arguing some massive overthrow but there are a lot of losers in the way things are currently being run and those with the biggest struggles are shown little care.


So do you think all criminals should be killed ?

I know this sounds like a cliche but I’ve lived and worked in Manchester a long time and I have a lot of black mates. One in the police force and he isn’t a fan of BLM so not some lefty do gooder but struggled with racist comments in the early days and missed opportunities he should have had access to - it’s different now - another mate ex army who suffered racism who found the whole BLM protests hard to hear and emotional because of the racist abuse he had suffered as kid and even from his sergeant in the army continually sanctioning him to see if he was on the right side. These to me are normal lads, great lads, proper mates strong characters who’ve had tough times. Not chip on your shoulder bullshitters. We had a whatsapp convo the other day and they were half joking about the racism in school - from kids, parents of white kids who wouldn’t have them as mates and worse from teachers - some of the stuff that was said - if you weren’t made of strong stuff .... They’ve had to deal with things I’ve never had to without any doubt and they’ve got brains and good families. Without that kids must suffer. I have to say also I work with young people, many offenders,
in Manchester so I see a lot of life.

Great post. Its nice to hear believable anecdotal facts. Usually people on the other side of this conversation argue with feelings and emotions and ignore facts then call you racist. Ive had these conversations with black people and never been called racist. Only called racist by white people when they run out arguments

 

[FulwellViaLeeds]

The true aims of BLM were apparent in 2015 when it emerged. Shame those who tried to speak out were labelled 'racist'. The PL went way over the top with support for the organisation. Get back to the 'kick it out' campaign that was going canny.

Going canny? They receive basically no funding and only have seventeen staff. Reporting of racist incidents in football rose again last year.

It's 'going canny' in the sense of not upsetting the apple cart as they are small and basically powerless. Even then, when they do challenge football fans on their views, people don't like it.

 

[gazc24]

Wakes up, puts kettle on, turns tv on, "you are a racist and privileged" turns TV off, checks Internet, "you are a racist and should feel bad" well guess I'm going bad to bed then.

 

[woodlebert]

Wakes up, puts kettle on, turns tv on, "you are a racist and privileged" turns TV off, checks Internet, "you are a racist and should feel bad" well guess I'm going bad to bed then.

Where do you see this stuff? I never seem to come across it. I read it reported on here and elsewhere but never actually see the stuff first hand

 

[themanagersnot2blame]

A bit off topic like.
capitalism in any form won't create a fair society, fairness is not what the system is designed for. Capitalism allows for every person to fulfil their potential and as all people don't have the same potential it will never be fair.
I would certainly argue not to move away away from capitalism as it works better than anything that has ever been. In a free market economy the gap between the rich and poor will continue to widen but the poor still get richer.

Socialist economies do not work, they always have failed and they always fail because they are in direct conflict with human nature. Socialism multiplied by time equals catastrophic economic failure and no matter how much the lefties want that not to be true it is.
If you think it's a good idea to reduce the gap between the rich and poor by making the rich poor and the poor even poorer than vote to bring down capitalism.

Socialism doesn’t need to replace capitalism but it is needed to clip the wings of capitalism in certain situations and can and should exist alongside it. The NHS, schools, prisons are all state funded organisations. The NHS is ‘a national treasure’ to many/ most of the uk population so ‘socialism’ is proven to work and is popular.

The socialists aren’t advocating state run nightclubs and software companies just that public services aren’t turned into cash cows or ran for private gain over public interest/ outcomes. In addition to this they want to make sure the successful capitalists put there hand in their pockets via taxation to pay their share for the infrastructure that has allowed them to be successful. Where would these rich capitalists be without the roads they use to deliver their goods, the schools who have educated them and their staff, the medical care that treats them, their staff and their customers, the police and judicial system that enforces law and order and deters criminals from assasinating them/ stealing their possessions?

 

[gazc24]

Where do you see this stuff? I never seem to come across it. I read it reported on here and elsewhere but never actually see the stuff first hand

Bbc, sky, Netflix, podcasts, every social media platform basically every time I've turned the TV on the last 2 weeks

 

[sir rowell cummins]

Wakes up, puts kettle on, turns tv on, "you are a racist and privileged" turns TV off, checks Internet, "you are a racist and should feel bad" well guess I'm going bad to bed then.

You sound like a snowflake

 

[AndyH]

So show me where you got this evidence from?

you sound like an intelligent bloke, do you think what I said sounded wrong or right?
What i said isn't radical, think of the people you deal with, take a young violent drug dealer, is it a necessity of his poverty, was he that poor he had no choice or does it sound more reasonable it's about status.

This is generally accepted by social scientists even the left ones which they pretty much all are anyway.
Either way regardless of the cause they are both problematic and need addressing.
If the cause is poverty it's a simple fix, give them an extra 50 quid a week on top of what they get or what ever sum is needed to take them out of poverty and job done.
If its a inequality problem as I suggest then the fix is harder, you need to get rid of inequality or reduce the steepness of the ladder that leads to the top.

 

[sir rowell cummins]

you sound like an intelligent bloke, do you think what I said sounded wrong or right?
What i said isn't radical, think of the people you deal with, take a young violent drug dealer, is it a necessity of his poverty, was he that poor he had no choice or does it sound more reasonable it's about status.

This is generally accepted by social scientists even the left ones which they pretty much all are anyway.
Either way regardless of the cause they are both problematic and need addressing.
If the cause is poverty it's a simple fix, give them an extra 50 quid a week on top of what they get or what ever sum is needed to take them out of poverty and job done.
If its a inequality problem as I suggest then the fix is harder, you need to get rid of inequality or reduce the steepness of the ladder that leads to the top.

With respect I think your comparison of poverty here and In other countries is entirely misplaced and incomparable. If I read comparisons of violent crime in London with say the county lines issue in rural communities the drivers are very different so comparing Africa to Manchester doesn’t work.
Status is a complex thing. We seem to want status and identity more and more. Showing you’re cool on here or Facebook matters even to adults. It is definitely a factor in decision making - wanting the clothes others have or better matters for many and more for someone with little else. Poverty even matters in relation to status though. If you are bullied for being smelly, poor it isn’t the fault of the child it’s the fault of the parent at times and often the circumstances they find themselves in - mental health, housing, benefit delays being big factors Currently. Aspiring to have what the other kids have is inevitable. So Factor into that someone offering you good money. In most not all cases dealers don’t hold goods they pay Vulnerable kids to hold them - quite often those with special needs, mental health, parents with difficulties coping, issues and poverty. Also I’d say migrant kids are used a lot these days who have difficulties over language income and employment. There isn’t one issue - it’s a combination of things always - so parental struggles lead to poverty. Be it health or debt or whatever it causes hardship. People can’t wait so go for quick wins to have food, Heating ,belonging. It’s a sad fact. Inner cities have higher numbers of ethic minority communities. Subject to this issue so Are simply more vulnerable. It’s sad cos they’re little humans with personalities who sometimes are dehumanised by their ‘classification’ - offender, gang member, refugee etc but it ain’t going away this cos we say ‘send them home’. So yes status is a factor but also so are the many others linked to poverty and inequality. Trauma is a massive factor From violent crime and when we assess traumatic childhood experiences we look at experiences of racism, extreme poverty as well as others like witnessing violence, migration , living in conflict areas. These are heavily researched. You can see why where you have to live and your experiences As a person of colour create a negative cycle. So I don’t think defund the police Is right it affect these kids - it I do think invest in support is a topic worth discussing. We pay anyway - just for prison places which are a huge cost to the taxpayer. It won’t stop by saying they Just shouldn’t do it.