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Australia v England, 3rd Test, 16th December , 23.30

mackinbristol said:
I'd argue there have definitely been teams who had less talent, but I still maintain that this is the worst team we've had for the Ashes, at least in the 30 years I can remember watching test cricket.

The fact that they've surrendered so meekly in spite of having bags of talent in the squad, makes it worse.

In previous series when we've had a team that you can plainly see doesn't have enough ability, at least you felt like the players were trying their best. Their best may not have been anywhere near good enough, but at least they put the effort in.

This current team feels like most of them could be world class if they could be bothered, but there's no desire. There's no drive to improve, to work on their individual weaknesses, to think about how to adapt to match situations.

It feels awful watching a bunch of talented players bury their heads in the sand and refuse to do anything that could improve the situation.
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Yeah I can see your point, that’s why I mentioning could be must frustrating team to tour there rather than worst team.

Personally have just seen us meekly surrender in previous series down under and not come close so thought they were worse teams.

But can certainly see where you coming from in the sense of hope before the series and totally underperforming
 

Voice of fair play said:
Yeah I can see your point, that’s why I mentioning could be must frustrating team to tour there rather than worst team.

Personally have just seen us meekly surrender in previous series down under and not come close so thought they were worse teams.

But can certainly see where you coming from in the sense of hope before the series and totally underperforming
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It's impossible to name a worst touring team as the opposition isn't a constant so you're not comparing like v like.
I've followed Ashes tours since late 1950s and this bazball bunch appear to be the most ill-prepared both pre-season series and throughout the series.
The blame has got to lie at Key and McCullum- they dictate selection and methodologies. They come over as narrow minded and arrogant.It should have been obvious to any other than the most naive that that such a one-sized approach as Bazball would be found out very quickly. It's limitations were pointed out pretty quickly on this board.
 
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Parkside said:
It's impossible to name a worst touring team as the opposition isn't a constant so you're not comparing like v like.
I've followed Ashes tours since late 1950s and this bazball bunch appear to be the most ill-prepared both pre-season series and throughout the series.
The blame has got to lie at Key and McCullum- they dictate selection and methodologies. They come over as narrow minded and arrogant.It should have been obvious to any other than the most naive that that such a one-sized approach as Bazball would be found out very quickly. It's limitations were pointed out pretty quickly on this board.
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Tbf you could say that about any cricket or football teams through different generations

But debates for fun always happen as comparisons do.

I certainly think there has been worse England teams down under than this one but like you say you can never be certain and hard to compare accurately for the reasons you have alluded too.

That’s not for one minute mind excusing the absolute shit show we have offered this series and the other points you have made.
 
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Although these are not the worst players , it WILL be seen as the worst touring team representing England in Australia......my reasons being :-
  • The lack of real fight in batting.
  • The nature of dismissals
  • The dropped catches
  • The lack of overs faced batting
  • The bowling performances
  • No frontline spinner
  • The lack of accountability
  • The interviews and lack of respect for the game.
  • Having NO substitute players in form and ready to play. It was this 11 or 12.
  • Having a lack of understanding in a game situation /strategy during play.
  • Finally and ultimately, the lack of runs , bowlers unable to bowl as a group, the fielding and games just ripped away in an instant.
The players individually are not the worst BUT as a group, as a concept, the tactics and the attitude and performances , then they must go down as the worst. They have been an embarrassment. Totally got it wrong on and off the field.
 
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columbo70 said:
Although these are not the worst players , it WILL be seen as the worst touring team representing England in Australia......my reasons being :-
  • The lack of real fight in batting.
  • The nature of dismissals
  • The dropped catches
  • The lack of overs faced batting
  • The bowling performances
  • No frontline spinner
  • The lack of accountability
  • The interviews and lack of respect for the game.
  • Having NO substitute players in form and ready to play. It was this 11 or 12.
  • Having a lack of understanding the game situation /strategy during play.
  • Finally and ultimately, the lack of runs , bowlers unable to bowl as a group, the fielding and games just ripped away in an instant.
The players individually are not the worst BUT as a group, as a concept, the tactics and the attitude and performance then they must go down as the worst. They have been an embarrassment. Totally got it wrong on and off the field.
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..apart from that they've been canny ;)
 
columbo70 said:
Although these are not the worst players , it WILL be seen as the worst touring team representing England in Australia......my reasons being :-
  • The lack of real fight in batting.
  • The nature of dismissals
  • The dropped catches
  • The lack of overs faced batting
  • The bowling performances
  • No frontline spinner
  • The lack of accountability
  • The interviews and lack of respect for the game.
  • Having NO substitute players in form and ready to play. It was this 11 or 12.
  • Having a lack of understanding in a game situation /strategy during play.
  • Finally and ultimately, the lack of runs , bowlers unable to bowl as a group, the fielding and games just ripped away in an instant.
The players individually are not the worst BUT as a group, as a concept, the tactics and the attitude and performances , then they must go down as the worst. They have been an embarrassment. Totally got it wrong on and off the field.
Click to expand...
They appear to not care
Might be wrong but that’s how it looks
 
I think the application has improved but Australia are simply in a different league. That said, the awful choices persist. Duckett’s dismissal was plain daft.
 
Safc1987 said:
Got to think the Aussie lads played three warm up games pre ashes England just played each other, absolute madness
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Not “warm up games”. Most of the Australian test squad, and all of those hoping to get into it, played Shield cricket in advance of the series. No bugger watches it, but in terms of its quality and competitiveness no one would call it warm up stuff. It’s proper competitive cricket.

That’s your problem. It doesn’t really matter who the piss take 14 a side match they start a tour with these days is against. They need to play proper competitive cricket to get match sharp. And they won’t. Not when the golf course beckons.
mackinbristol said:
I'd argue there have definitely been teams who had less talent, but I still maintain that this is the worst team we've had for the Ashes, at least in the 30 years I can remember watching test cricket.

The fact that they've surrendered so meekly in spite of having bags of talent in the squad, makes it worse.

In previous series when we've had a team that you can plainly see doesn't have enough ability, at least you felt like the players were trying their best. Their best may not have been anywhere near good enough, but at least they put the effort in.

This current team feels like most of them could be world class if they could be bothered, but there's no desire. There's no drive to improve, to work on their individual weaknesses, to think about how to adapt to match situations.

It feels awful watching a bunch of talented players bury their heads in the sand and refuse to do anything that could improve the situation.
Click to expand...
Feels like present bias to me. I’m spitting feathers, particularly as I was out to watch the first two. But I don’t think you can say this was a more meek surrender than most of the other recent ones.

There was a shocking statistic quoted this morning that nine of the last 10 ashes series in Australia have been over in terms of who got the ashes by the third test. Not always 3-0. In the last century when you still occasionally got a draw it might only be 2-0 with them as incumbent. But every bloody time it’s not exceptional.

This is the first time we have even had a first innings lead in the last four series. And as I like to point out when Vaughan is going off on one, the three live tests he played saw an innings defeat, an innings defeat, and a defeat by nearly 400 runs. Crap, this may have been. But it hasn’t been unusually crap.
 
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Fleagle said:
I like to point out when Vaughan is going off on one, the three live tests he played saw an innings defeat, an innings defeat, and a defeat by nearly 400 runs. Crap, this may have been. But it hasn’t been unusually crap.
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That'll be the "going off on one"Vaughan who clearly learnt from that drubbing and led a hardly changed squad to victory in the return 2005 series. Shrewd and knowledgeable cricketer and leader Michael Vaughan and not one to be the subject of ridicule and scorn imo.
Both he and Anderson would have a lot to offer a future England team-if they'd to be open to that knowledge.
 
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Can’t wait to wake up in the morning with Smith and Jacks unbeaten centuries leading us to a famous win and Aussie tears arl ower.
 
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