• The forums will be unavailable for a few hours on Saturday 6th June, when they do return they will initially be in a degraded state with some features missing, but normal posting/reading will be possible. The main website will not be affected by these updates.
    New user registrations are currently disabled.
    Some other features of the forum are also currently disabled.

A system set up to fail

Status
Not open for further replies.
Coeus said:
I'm not blaming the fans at all, that bit was tongue in cheek. A bit difficult to get across via text mind. Nor am I absolving the manager of any wrongdoing, my point is that the system is currently set up to fail by being heavily weighted on the short term only to be detrimental to our mid to long term.
Click to expand...

I agree to a point, but that's not just here it's football almost everywhere. Managers need to do well and show progress otherwise confidence in them will be lost and they wont get that time, but at the same time to have any longevity have one eye on the future. The short term success will be what sees them get the opportunity or not. In one sense Ross done well to see he had issues in how he wanted to play with the squad and change it, he just failed to really address it at all in January and retracted too far.
 

Perryqhill said:
I agree to a point, but that's not just here it's football almost everywhere. Managers need to do well and show progress otherwise confidence in them will be lost and they wont get that time, but at the same time to have any longevity have one eye on the future. The short term success will be what sees them get the opportunity or not. In one sense Ross done well to see he had issues in how he wanted to play with the squad and change it, he just failed to really address it at all in January and retracted too far.
Click to expand...

I get that to a point but why not evolve, why not try to do things better than everyone else?

If you can be precise about expectations, plan your future in an intelligent manner it would temper a great deal of negativity rather than just whipping everyone up to hopefully ride the momentum.

It all just seems so basic and harmful to me.
 
Coeus said:
I get that to a point but why not evolve, why not try to do things better than everyone else?

If you can be precise about expectations, plan your future in an intelligent manner it would temper a great deal of negativity rather than just whipping everyone up to hopefully ride the momentum.

It all just seems so basic and harmful to me.
Click to expand...

Surely trying to do things better is the aim regardless?

In football and at some level or point it will often come down to economics though and whether you can afford to be better than everyone else. And of course you can plan well, do it in an reasonable and intelligent manger but things can change in an instant, opportunities come in an instant and you can't always plan what happens on the pitch, only prepare for it - chances come along and you either take them or don't. If you don't take that chance, pay the money or wages for that player then someone in the underhand world of football will. Of course you've got to plan, but you've also got to think and act on your feet too.

You can't expect 25k-30k fans to pay in advance for a SC for something which is marketed as entertainment and then tell them there's a long term plan and not to worry. Similarly you'd have trouble selling the club to better players. You need a bit of whipping up and to capitalise on the momentum, whilst working in the background to ensure it's on a sound footing and that there's a plan in place.
 
Perryqhill said:
Surely trying to do things better is the aim regardless?

In football and at some level or point it will often come down to economics though and whether you can afford to be better than everyone else. And of course you can plan well, do it in an reasonable and intelligent manger but things can change in an instant, opportunities come in an instant and you can't always plan what happens on the pitch, only prepare for it - chances come along and you either take them or don't. If you don't take that chance, pay the money or wages for that player then someone in the underhand world of football will. Of course you've got to plan, but you've also got to think and act on your feet too.

You can't expect 25k-30k fans to pay in advance for a SC for something which is marketed as entertainment and then tell them there's a long term plan and not to worry. Similarly you'd have trouble selling the club to better players. You need a bit of whipping up and to capitalise on the momentum, whilst working in the background to ensure it's on a sound footing and that there's a plan in place.
Click to expand...

It's all about the finances I agree, so why not tailor the club to grow their assets, this is the best way I can tell for a club to raise its finances.

If you're upfront about being a long term project, I think you can be hopeful the fans will bear with you, especially if it is a mix of Acadamy players and finding players no one knows. You can also announce to the footballing world that your remit is to improve young players and sell on if said players grows quicker than we do, what better pitch to the academy kids and young players?

Had we kept the kids we have let go, spent the transfer money on keeping players and improving analytics/scouting and finished mid-table, the club would be in a much healthier position right now. As it is were aimless, saddled with more unnecessary wages and the value of our assets have gone down in most cases.
 
Coeus said:
When so much onus is put upon the short term, a club is destined to fail in the long term imo.

You have a manager, that if he didn't before, will well and truly understand that he is only a month or two poor form away from the fans turning. This means he has to look at the immediate.

This will affect everything, style of play, transfers, confidence.

Similar to the owners, the plan is to build on the momentum for the immediate. Sell off the youngsters for low fee's while panic buying a striker at well over value. I don't doubt that the meaning isn't absolutely correct, it's just backwards imo. When you buy someone over value, you don't half ramp up the pressure so in a way, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Almost all weird decisions can be explained by this onus on the short term. The question is quite rightly being asked of the tactics, what happened to high pressing and why did this cautious approach take over? Well, the decision appears to have been made because we were leaking early goals and we have enough quality in McGeady & formerly Maja to win the game, so keep it safe. This alleviates the possible turning of the fans and certainly stops individual criticism should they lose the ball. We tried to play ourselves out of danger once against Oxford, the first time we had done it in weeks and we received a free kick, had we lost the ball and Oxford scored, there would have been hell to pay for the offender, why bother?

I'll stop prattling on now, but there you have it. A system set up to fail, if you can and do build momentum it will eventually crash and unless the onus, club-wide changes, we will never outperform.

TLDR = Manager is immaterial. Owners and fans fault.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately by signing the likes of Leadbitter and Grigg he has already been looking at the immediate rather than the future and that has been his biggest downfall
 
rentaghost said:
Unfortunately by signing the likes of Leadbitter and Grigg he has already been looking at the immediate rather than the future and that has been his biggest downfall
Click to expand...

They were the epitome of here and now signings. The exact type of signings we hoped to move on from.

I love Grant and Grigg may progress next season but what would have happened had we gone up? Neither are Championship signings, Griggs worth was half as much the second we signed him and even less now.

I like Stewart, seems to me his heart is in the right place but he has completely contradicted all the stuff about not buying our way out of trouble, being wiser etc..

If he is looking to sell at a quick profit, he should be more ambitious in my opinion and realise the premiership is an absolute cash cow if you are clever enough.
 
Coeus said:
Completely agree, I believe we were playing a different game at the start of the season which involved the 2 you spoke of.

We appear to have changed quite a bit from then, possibly due to conceding early goals and the resulting questions being asked. That along with McGeady getting fit and Maja on form, the safest action in Ross's opinion was to change the tactics.

I'm not backing the manager, I'm just saying it doesn't matter who is manager in the mid to long term. Had we gone up this season or not, even had we gone up as champions it wouldn't matter if we continue to operate as we are.



I agree it shouldn't be the case for the biggest budget.

Fair enough, a difference of opinion on some teams battering us.

As for more attacking, who would want to leave our defenders one on one.

I think a huge amount of unrest would have occurred at being 4-0 down at half time which would have resulted in the players being scarred at the very least.
Click to expand...

I'd leave our defenders one on one in this league because the standard is crap. I'd back our players to outscore the opposition more often than not if we took the game to them.

Overall we'd have lost more games but also won more, and finished with more points.
 
Coeus said:
They were the epitome of here and now signings. The exact type of signings we hoped to move on from.

I love Grant and Grigg may progress next season but what would have happened had we gone up? Neither are Championship signings, Griggs worth was half as much the second we signed him and even less now.

I like Stewart, seems to me his heart is in the right place but he has completely contradicted all the stuff about not buying our way out of trouble, being wiser etc..

If he is looking to sell at a quick profit, he should be more ambitious in my opinion and realise the premiership is an absolute cash cow if you are clever enough.
Click to expand...

There's nothing wrong with 'here and now' signings, you just have to strike the right balance.
 
Coeus said:
When so much onus is put upon the short term, a club is destined to fail in the long term imo.

You have a manager, that if he didn't before, will well and truly understand that he is only a month or two poor form away from the fans turning. This means he has to look at the immediate.

This will affect everything, style of play, transfers, confidence.

Similar to the owners, the plan is to build on the momentum for the immediate. Sell off the youngsters for low fee's while panic buying a striker at well over value. I don't doubt that the meaning isn't absolutely correct, it's just backwards imo. When you buy someone over value, you don't half ramp up the pressure so in a way, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Almost all weird decisions can be explained by this onus on the short term. The question is quite rightly being asked of the tactics, what happened to high pressing and why did this cautious approach take over? Well, the decision appears to have been made because we were leaking early goals and we have enough quality in McGeady & formerly Maja to win the game, so keep it safe. This alleviates the possible turning of the fans and certainly stops individual criticism should they lose the ball. We tried to play ourselves out of danger once against Oxford, the first time we had done it in weeks and we received a free kick, had we lost the ball and Oxford scored, there would have been hell to pay for the offender, why bother?

I'll stop prattling on now, but there you have it. A system set up to fail, if you can and do build momentum it will eventually crash and unless the onus, club-wide changes, we will never outperform.

TLDR = Manager is immaterial. Owners and fans fault.
Click to expand...

I totally agree with most of this
 
All of the decisions made for the past 10 years were based on short termism and short sightedness. Unless there is going to be a strict, defined way in which we proceed as a club, then we will continue to fail.

I forgot to add in there competence
 
AC Mack said:
There's nothing wrong with 'here and now' signings, you just have to strike the right balance.
Click to expand...
in each of the three seasons n this league..safc have had the highest wage budget i think..but not fnished anywhere near the top..implying lots of cash spent for no return.
 
kildaremackem said:
in each of the three seasons n this league..safc have had the highest wage budget i think..but not fnished anywhere near the top..implying lots of cash spent for no return.
Click to expand...

What we've lost on the swings, we've gained on the roundabouts, to a greater or lesser extent, though.

Our wages are ridiculously high but our net spend on players has been next to nothing, the past couple of years. If you're not paying a transfer fee, the money "saved" will go on extra wages, signing on fee and the likes.
 
If the truth be known, probably 90% of clubs are ran on short termism.
There are not many well ran clubs who see the bigger picture.
 
Dodgy said:
What we've lost on the swings, we've gained on the roundabouts, to a greater or lesser extent, though.

Our wages are ridiculously high but our net spend on players has been next to nothing, the past couple of years. If you're not paying a transfer fee, the money "saved" will go on extra wages, signing on fee and the likes.
Click to expand...
but or net spend wont be much lower than others n this division, and higher than most..so the fees bit hasnt held us back..or cost us less than most )(ost teams in the league havent spent £3m total in the three years we are in this league, we did t just on grigg, so our spend is massive))
vinegar hill said:
If the truth be known, probably 90% of clubs are ran on short termism.
There are not many well ran clubs who see the bigger picture.
Click to expand...
the ones who ar the successful ones.
 
Dodgy said:
What we've lost on the swings, we've gained on the roundabouts, to a greater or lesser extent, though.

Our wages are ridiculously high but our net spend on players has been next to nothing, the past couple of years. If you're not paying a transfer fee, the money "saved" will go on extra wages, signing on fee and the likes.
Click to expand...
No one down here pays transfer fees though. They produce their own players and snap up freebies then rely on managers/head coaches to mould em into summet better than the fellers attempting to do the same thing in the other dugouts.
Weve been the worst performing club since we came down here as we’ve been by far the biggest spenders on both wages and transfers and agents fees etc with by far the biggest incomings at the gate. The other club boardrooms piss themselves laughing every time our name crops up over the dry whites at other L1 matches as they can’t believe how mammals capable of walking upright can get something so wrong.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top