A system set up to fail

[Mboma]

If the player wanted to leave, then there is nothing we could have done to stop them, I understand this. I'm just not sure that we did all we could to keep them, especially as Stephensons dad said we didn't appear to want to keep them due to the fee.

I heard it was 500k for Stephenson, now that is a lot of money for a young lad who's not going to see any first team football for a very long time (probably even longer at Liverpool) he may not make it at all, there's a lot that could go wrong at that age. I don't expect us to keep every talented youngster we have, no club's academy does.

Personally, I don't think we need to be looking long term whilst in this league, it needs to be the very opposite, if we don't get promoted then all the good work disappears, along with dwindling crowds. Get out of this league then start planning for the next few tough seasons in the championship with promotion the aim again.

As for panic buying, bringing someone like Grigg in with his goal record and the amount of times he's been promoted (4 in 4 is it?) From this league is anything but panic buying! We may have paid over the odds but if his goals see us promoted then it becomes irrelevant....it was a calculated gamble, not a panic buy.

 

[Coeus]

I heard it was 500k for Stephenson, now that is a lot of money for a young lad who's not going to see any first team football for a very long time (probably even longer at Liverpool) he may not make it at all, there's a lot that could go wrong at that age. I don't expect us to keep every talented youngster we have, no club's academy does.

Personally, I don't think we need to be looking long term whilst in this league, it needs to be the very opposite, if we don't get promoted then all the good work disappears, along with dwindling crowds. Get out of this league then start planning for the next few tough seasons in the championship with promotion the aim again.

As for panic buying, bringing someone like Grigg in with his goal record and the amount of times he's been promoted (4 in 4 is it?) From this league is anything but panic buying! We may have paid over the odds but if his goals see us promoted then it becomes irrelevant....it was a calculated gamble, not a panic buy.

All very sensible viewpoints with merit to them, I do disagree though.

When a club of Liverpool decides a player as young as Luca is worth 500k, you can sensibly believe that the player could become a premiership player, even a very good one that would net insane amounts of money. Rejecting 500k is the calculated gamble I would have took (although I am aware it wasn't as simple as saying yes or no).

I think if you have a strategy, implement it straight away, not when it becomes easy to do so as there will never be the right time. If you can't commit to doing it when the pressure and expectation is at an all-time low, then you never can.

I don't dislike Grigg, I just think the version of events in which we bought him, was panicked.

Let's call it 4 million, could we have used that 4 million to keep Maja and the youngsters we have lost? Im not sure but would if so, would we be in a better position mid term?

 

[KNGHTHOOD]

I'm sorry you've lost me?

What part have I undermined?

Regardless of any plan, they have sold off the kids and overpaid for a striker. I believe they have done so because all-encompassing importance placed on now.

If we had been in the Premier and paid 3 million with add on's for a Championship player would that be classed as overpaid.

 

[Sam Handwich]

but my point is currently everything in the club is geared towards now, it will cost us long term unless a person will bankroll all the mistakes.

So are you advocating we stay in this league for another season. Because after our spectacular fall from grace, that would be sensibly "looking at the future" rather than the present. These players aren't geared up for the second division yet, some of them wont ever be and the youngsters need more time. Rock and Hard Place come to mind.

 

[Coeus]

If we had been in the Premier and paid 3 million with add on's for a Championship player would that be classed as overpaid.

That's pretty open and depends on the player surely? But as a generalisation, no, I wouldn't have thought so, why?

 

[KNGHTHOOD]

That's pretty open and depends on the player surely? But as a generalisation, no, I wouldn't have thought so, why?

Just comparing signing a player like Grigg in the Premier to 1st Division.

 

[Coeus]

So are you advocating we stay in this league for another season. Because after our spectacular fall from grace, that would be sensibly "looking at the future" rather than the present. These players aren't geared up for the second division yet, some of them wont ever be and the youngsters need more time. Rock and Hard Place come to mind.

No not at all, I don't think what I am advocating requires we stayed in this league but it would require it not being the end of the world.

If the club has better assets the following season, should it be the end of the world if we are not in the division we plan on being in?

It's very difficult for the owners and they have done a fantastic job thus far, I'm just saying some of it appears counterproductive to me and the club will continue as it has since I can remember if we do not think differently.

 

[TopCat]

So many tactical experts on here who cleary know better than a bloke with all his coaching qualifications and a win % of nearly 60

 

[Coeus]

Just comparing signing a player like Grigg in the Premier to 1st Division.

I'm not following mate, why would you sign Grigg in the Premiership?

So many tactical experts on here who cleary know better than a bloke with all his coaching qualifications and a win % of nearly 60

I don't understand, literally, none of my points has been about improving tactics?

I know I'm terrible at articulating my thought process but surely it cant be that bad?

 

[The Cabbage]

I think the youth player thing is a red herring tbh as the system is set up for big fish to poach from smaller ones - and my own internal logic suggests that the words of parents in the aftermath are likely to be damage limitation. I do agree about the Grigg thing though. He’s a good player but that’s a stunning amount to pay - and I’m not convinced that the club is doing the right work in player acquisition to maximise the effect we get from that level of spend. Still, the squad is the strongest in the division and that leaves it to Ross to find a formula to get us going.

 

[KNGHTHOOD]

I'm not following mate, why would you sign Grigg in the Premiership?



I don't understand, literally, none of my points has been about improving tactics?

I know I'm terrible at articulating my thought process but surely it cant be that bad?

Signed Altidore in the Premier.

 

[Coeus]

I think the youth player thing is a red herring tbh as the system is set up for big fish to poach from smaller ones - and my own internal logic suggests that the words of parents in the aftermath are likely to be damage limitation. I do agree about the Grigg thing though. He’s a good player but that’s a stunning amount to pay - and I’m not convinced that the club is doing the right work in player acquisition to maximise the effect we get from that level of spend. Still, the squad is the strongest in the division and that leaves it to Ross to find a formula to get us going.

Good point on the damage limitation thing, the point about the youngsters is more philosophical than factual because how could we know the truth, it may have no basis but I guess my point is, if the onus was on the long term, would we have done more?

It appears to me that the owners possibly signed Grigg for too much money as they placed a lot of weight on supporter opinion and have in fact made it more difficult to work in the future as the expectancy is now there. Same as it ever was, in a way.

Signed Altidore in the Premier.

I still don't get the comparisons mate?

Altidore was a funny one mind, I think the RDF had the right idea in a way and was given an unrealistic remit.

To fundamentally change the way a football club works for the first time ever only to sack him 6 months later, is an example of the old owner doing what I am talking about.

 

[Mboma]

All very sensible viewpoints with merit to them, I do disagree though.

When a club of Liverpool decides a player as young as Luca is worth 500k, you can sensibly believe that the player could become a premiership player, even a very good one that would net insane amounts of money. Rejecting 500k is the calculated gamble I would have took (although I am aware it wasn't as simple as saying yes or no).

I think if you have a strategy, implement it straight away, not when it becomes easy to do so as there will never be the right time. If you can't commit to doing it when the pressure and expectation is at an all-time low, then you never can.

I don't dislike Grigg, I just think the version of events in which we bought him, was panicked.

Let's call it 4 million, could we have used that 4 million to keep Maja and the youngsters we have lost? Im not sure but would if so, would we be in a better position mid term?

Looks like we will have to agree to disagree.

Liverpool can throw 500k at a youngster and they'll never worry about him, the likelyhood is that he will never play for them and they won't be bothered, the reality at our club is very different to Liverpools and it's a one where we can't really look 4/5 yr down the line and think that 500k won't come in handy now in the position we find ourselves in, I also think that we won't have sold every bright prospect at the academy, you let a few go to keep it running well.

The only strategy needed this season is to go up, then we start to plan for some stability in the championship.

Maja did not want to stay, he had an outstanding few month, it's gone to his head and he's moved on to a better level than league one, we'll see how well he does in the future but it doesn't change the fact that he had up and left before he had signed the contract. I don't think paying kids more money out of that 3-4 million is a great idea when they don't even have pro contracts, that could see young lads demanding silly money before they've even kicked a ball for the first team.

We had to give what Wigan wanted, we tried to get him cheaper and that's why it went down to the wire but he was Ross's no.1 target. It wasn't a panic buy, it was an inflated fee to get a top player at this level from a club that didn't want to sell him, it's usually the case in football.

 

[Coeus]

Looks like we will have to agree to disagree.

Liverpool can throw 500k at a youngster and they'll never worry about him, the likelyhood is that he will never play for them and they won't be bothered, the reality that our club is in is very different to Liverpools and it's a one where we can't really look 4/5 yr down the line and think that 500k won't come in handy now in the position we find ourselves in, I also think that we won't have sold every bright prospect at the academy, you let a few go to keep it running well.

The only strategy needed this season is to go up, then we start to plan for some stability in the championship.

Maja did not want to stay, he had an outstanding few month, it's gone to his head and he's moved on to a better level than league one, we'll see how well he does in the future but it doesn't change the fact that he had up and left before he had signed the contract. I don't think paying kids more money out of that 3-4 million is a great idea when they don't even have pro contracts, that could see young lads demanding silly money before they've even kicked a ball for the first team.

We had to give what Wigan wanted, we tried to get him cheaper and that's why it went down to the wire but he was Ross's no.1 target. It wasn't a panic buy, it was an inflated fee to get a top player at this level from a club that didn't want to sell him, it's usually the case in football.

I've no problem with differing opinions mate, its a sensible version of events that you have stated, I just believe the knock-on effects will be negative.

 

[Mainze]

We aren't "failing", for goodness sake. We just aren't doing as well as we should be.

Failing would be sitting in 12th place, not 9 points off the top with 3 games in hand!

We are nearly in 12th place in the form table. The brakes need to be applied and forward thrust engaged, and sharpish.

 

[prideofhylton]

Fail to plan..... Plan to fail

 

[Mackemjmc]

“Sell off the youngsters for low fee's while panic buying a striker at well over value.”

You seriously think that was the plan?

You’ve undermined your entire post there mate.

Agreed. We sell off a kid for four million quid who has only been playing half a season in the third division (granted he scored 15-16 goals) and replace him for the same money with a striker who is going to get you 20-25 goals a season at this level. Which one was overvalued??

 

[Coeus]

Fail to plan..... Plan to fail

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Agreed. We sell off a kid for four million quid who has only been playing half a season in the third division (granted he scored 15-16 goals) and replace him for the same money with a striker who is going to get you 20-25 goals a season at this level. Which one was overvalued??

I wasn't speaking about Maja mate as I know that situation was difficult but had it been by decision as you suggest a straight swap it would have been an accurate example of idiocy.

One was a young player who looked as if he would score 25-30 goals in a team that doesn't make chances. The other is a league one specialist. One has scope to increase his value hugely, and the other was bought over value.

I have found our rotten core, I just have to articulate it properly and I'll drop Stewart a line.

 

[fyl2u]

Thank god someone out there can see this is not a computer game

Anyone playing FM who's selling their good youngsters to buy players in their prime is doing it wrong and will run into trouble a few seasons later (unless they've got a sugar daddy giving them endless money).

 

[Dogbark]

All very sensible viewpoints with merit to them, I do disagree though.

When a club of Liverpool decides a player as young as Luca is worth 500k, you can sensibly believe that the player could become a premiership player, even a very good one that would net insane amounts of money. Rejecting 500k is the calculated gamble I would have took (although I am aware it wasn't as simple as saying yes or no).

I think if you have a strategy, implement it straight away, not when it becomes easy to do so as there will never be the right time. If you can't commit to doing it when the pressure and expectation is at an all-time low, then you never can.

I don't dislike Grigg, I just think the version of events in which we bought him, was panicked.

Let's call it 4 million, could we have used that 4 million to keep Maja and the youngsters we have lost? Im not sure but would if so, would we be in a better position mid term?

Then the player could leave when their registration expires and there'd be nowt that you could do about it.