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Southampton spying compendium thread


Seems a crazy punishment if Southampton are kicked out.
However someone at some point decided that it was serious enough to receive significant punishment, so it’s hard to justify why this is a fine only.
Points reduction is the most severe punishment I though but it’s too late and Wrexham could then have a claim albeit a distant one.
If proof is provided that Southampton did this during the season, it’s game over and such a stupid and expensive mistake.
 
Thurston said:
And? Do you honestly think that if they imposed a harsher penalty which potentially cost them £100mil+ that it wouldn’t end up in arbitration, with the Leeds incident and penalty cited?
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It would be utterly pointless from a legal standpoint trying to use that as a precedent. Canada tried it and failed miserably and the same would happen again here
 
Cee Jay said:
Think it’s a complete over reaction. I simply don’t think it has much of a bearing on matches and the rule itself is so “thin” that all this wailing about “it must be a sporting sanction” is going to lead to some very disappointed people on here.

Bloke behind a tree with a phone ffs.
Complete head loss

Madness if so :lol:
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While I agree the benefits probably aren't huge. However, why has he then (allegedly) gone and hid behind a tree recording on his phone in the first place, then ran off into the changing rooms and got changed, refused to identify who he was, deleted footage etc etc.
If it's of so little benefit why aren't training sessions open to opposition teams, they could even send scouts.
 
Thurston said:
That isn’t the only appropriate sanction though, is it?

For anyone who has a basic comprehension of justice, it wouldn’t even be considered an appropriate sanction.
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In any other part of the game trying to gain an unfair sporting advantage is dealt with with a sporting penalty.

Dive to try and win a penalty and you get a yellow card. Handball into the net, yellow card and goal not given. Field an ineligible player - disqualified from tournament.

Did Southampton try to gain a sporting advantage if the allegations are true - yes if not why do it. Has that potentially impacted Boro’s prep - Yes according to Boro and hard to argue how it hasn’t being they don’t know what was recorded.

There is no substitute for a sporting penalty and a future points deduction doesn’t work as 1) it doesn’t punish the attempt to gain an advantage THIS season 2) is almost certainly not proportionate if Southampton win the playoffs and get a 200 million quid payday and may not have to suffer the penalty for a decade if not applied in the prem.

The punishment for an admin error in fielding an ineligible player is disqualification. Tell me how this is less potentially impactful than that.
 
fireballs said:
While I agree the benefits probably aren't huge. However, why has he then (allegedly) gone and hid behind a tree recording on his phone in the first place, then ran off into the changing rooms and got changed, refused to identify who he was, deleted footage etc etc.
If it's of so little benefit why aren't training sessions open to opposition teams, they could even send scouts.
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Why don’t teams have sufficient security to ensure training isn’t able to be viewed.

The benefits and the bloke taking steps not to be caught are two different things. His actions don’t indicate this was earth shattering stuff he was witnessing
 
Cee Jay said:
Why don’t teams have sufficient security to ensure training isn’t able to be viewed.

The benefits and the bloke taking steps not to be caught are two different things. His actions don’t indicate this was earth shattering stuff he was witnessing
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I know the anaolgies will get twisted but that's like saying why does anyone get burgled or robbed, their security isn't good enough. It's cost/benefit, particularly when they would now be putting in place a prevention to something that isn't actually allowed.

Same for the last point. Agreed, benefits and being caught are different but the getting caught, he's be caught allegedly breaking a written rule potentially "attempting" to gain a sporting advantage. The rule is in place and if found guilty they should be punished.

After that, I'd probably agree that if in consultation with clubs everyone agrees the benefits are minimal then they should scrap the rules and let teams view and record opposition training sessions. Just stick a drone up.
 
arthursboy said:
Seems a crazy punishment if Southampton are kicked out.
However someone at some point decided that it was serious enough to receive significant punishment, so it’s hard to justify why this is a fine only.
Points reduction is the most severe punishment I though but it’s too late and Wrexham could then have a claim albeit a distant one.
If proof is provided that Southampton did this during the season, it’s game over and such a stupid and expensive mistake.
Click to expand...

Was reading a sports lawyer who was saying arguably it makes it more complex if they have done it before this season as then it’s not purely Boro who they have not “Acted in good faith” towards and makes it messy if other clubs are involved. Although I agree in principle it should make the penalty harsher for Southampton.

I think the EFL have a major problem. The closest precedent from the Global governing body is the Canada women’s team case and they effectively lost 66% of the available points in the competition.

Whilst the EFl don’t have to follow FIFA it will give Boro a very strong legal case if Southampton are found guilty and the punishment isn’t proportionate to that precedent.

Either way I think the EFL will find it hard to justify anything not resulting in a sporting punishment and it’s hard to argue a future one as it’s a completely different competition when next season starts and it would be delayed indefinitely until Southampton play in the league again which Boro could argue is too ambiguous and weak of a punishment.
 
MonkeyLove said:
Was reading a sports lawyer who was saying arguably it makes it more complex if they have done it before this season as then it’s not purely Boro who they have not “Acted in good faith” towards and makes it messy if other clubs are involved. Although I agree in principle it should make the penalty harsher for Southampton.

I think the EFL have a major problem. The closest precedent from the Global governing body is the Canada women’s team case and they effectively lost 66% of the available points in the competition.

Whilst the EFl don’t have to follow FIFA it will give Boro a very strong legal case if Southampton are found guilty and the punishment isn’t proportionate to that precedent.

Either way I think the EFL will find it hard to justify anything not resulting in a sporting punishment and it’s hard to argue a future one as it’s a completely different competition when next season starts and it would be delayed indefinitely until Southampton play in the league again which Boro could argue is too ambiguous and weak of a punishment.
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Boro might argue that, but as I understand it they have no right of appeal in any judgement ... the panel is sitting to decide the guilt / punishment for Southampton, and that shouldn't be based on how 'boro feel about the outcome.
 
arthursboy said:
Seems a crazy punishment if Southampton are kicked out.
However someone at some point decided that it was serious enough to receive significant punishment, so it’s hard to justify why this is a fine only.
Points reduction is the most severe punishment I though but it’s too late and Wrexham could then have a claim albeit a distant one.
If proof is provided that Southampton did this during the season, it’s game over and such a stupid and expensive mistake.
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My guess would be that the punishment won’t be expulsion directly, but rather they will be made to forfeit the first leg 3-0, which effectively expels them from the competition without setting such a draconian precedent for future instances.

IMHO I think a 3-0 loss seems fair, it’s enough of a deterrent to dissuade people from attempting it in future, and it also likely cancels out any advantage the cheating accrues.

I think the EFL need to be sensible and rewrite their rules in a much more deliberate manner so that the penalty is outlined in the rule, and then there can be no arguments about its application in future.
 
Flavonoids said:
Boro might argue that, but as I understand it they have no right of appeal in any judgement ... the panel is sitting to decide the guilt / punishment for Southampton, and that shouldn't be based on how 'boro feel about the outcome.
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Boro aren’t part of the proceedings but in effect the EFL are prosecuting Boro’s case as they are inextricably linked to it as the “Victim” if it’s decided that Southampton are guilty. The laws probably don’t use victim but they are essentially the club that Southampton are accused of not acting in good faith against and breaching the spying rule against.

It’s almost certain Gibson will also go after Southampton for compensation and for that ‘Harm’ will form part of any civil case.

If found guilty and the panel is consistent with the Canada women’s team spying case then the sporting punishment should apply to this years championship (As that is the competition where Southampton will have gained a sporting advantage - Next year is a completely new competition legally) and Saints should be deducted 66% of their total available points total.

We all know that won’t happen as it would mean they were not even in the playoffs but relegated. But being Canadas punishment applied to the current competition and resulted in a 6 point deduction from a 3 game group stage that would be the closest equivalent.

Anything less then a severe sanction and Gibson will have a field day in court simply by arguing the precedent FIFA have set since the rule changed applied in the EFL. Leeds case largely irrelevant.
 
MonkeyLove said:
Boro aren’t part of the proceedings but in effect the EFL are prosecuting Boro’s case as they are inextricably linked to it as the “Victim” if it’s decided that Southampton are guilty. The laws probably don’t use victim but they are essentially the club that Southampton are accused of not acting in good faith against and breaching the spying rule against.

It’s almost certain Gibson will also go after Southampton for compensation and for that ‘Harm’ will form part of any civil case.

If found guilty and the panel is consistent with the Canada women’s team spying case then the sporting punishment should apply to this years championship (As that is the competition where Southampton will have gained a sporting advantage - Next year is a completely new competition legally) and Saints should be deducted 66% of their total available points total.

We all know that won’t happen as it would mean they were not even in the playoffs but relegated. But being Canadas punishment applied to the current competition and resulted in a 6 point deduction from a 3 game group stage that would be the closest equivalent.

Anything less then a severe sanction and Gibson will have a field day in court simply by arguing the precedent FIFA have set since the rule changed applied in the EFL. Leeds case largely irrelevant.
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I don't know, but FIFA sanctions aren't EFL sanctions. We'll find out soon enough ... it'll be interesting / funny whatever happens, and I hope Hull prevail whoever they do or don't play.
 
Dredd said:
I'd be very surprised at that, can't see Hull being happy with it
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Let’s see eh
HettonSAFC said:
I doubt it even if found guilty. Fine at worst.
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Oh no it’s much bigger than that
10 Gary Rowells said:
I don't think anyone could complain about Southampton getting kicked out but It would be a disgrace to have the final on a Tuesday night. Hull fans would be treated like an absloute second thought just because the EFL are to slow to sort their business. There could be loads of Hull fans out of pocket. Are th EFL going to refund non-refundable costs?
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Well let’s see eh
 
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