Umpires

[Raymondo]

Interesting tweet from Azeem Rafiq regarding Zak Crawley’s second innings dismissal on Saturday:

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I think Durham have been on the receiving end of some absolute howlers already this season, certainly more ‘shocking’ than that, because if I’m being honest I think there’s a chance that’s clipping leg.

 

[Voice of fair play]

I think as happens in football there is some sensible supporters who accept their team get good and bad decisions and are treat no differently from any other particular club/county/team,

And some not soo sensible ones who always think their team gets more bad ones than good.

I would imagine Mr Rafiq in the past would have appealed and got a decision that on reflection and after replay may not have been the best decision.

That’s sport, officials of all sport are human and will make mistakes as happened since well forever

 

[Raymondo]

I think as happens in football there is some sensible supporters who accept their team get good and bad decisions and are treat no differently from any other particular club/county/team,

And some not soo sensible ones who always think their team gets more bad ones than good.

I would imagine Mr Rafiq in the past would have appealed and got a decision that on reflection and after replay may not have been the best decision.

Mr Rafiq isn’t a Kent supporter.

Are you suggesting I’m ‘not too sensible’ for pointing out umpiring mistakes?

That’s sport, officials of all sport are human and will make mistakes as happened since well forever

So has cheating and match fixing by officials in fairness. I’m not suggesting that’s what’s going on here, but your statement holds no weight when you appreciate that it’s not always ‘mistakes’.

The very fact they are human doesn’t mean they can’t be influenced or persuaded into making the incorrect calls either by accident or with intended bias. It happens. As does unconscious bias.

 

[Voice of fair play]

Mr Rafiq isn’t a Kent supporter.

Are you suggesting I’m ‘not too sensible’ for pointing out umpiring mistakes?



So has cheating and match fixing by officials in fairness. I’m not suggesting that’s what’s going on here, but your statement holds no weight when you appreciate that it’s not always ‘mistakes’.

The very fact they are human doesn’t mean they can’t be influenced or persuaded into making the incorrect calls either by accident or with intended bias. It happens. As does unconscious bias.

I know Mr Rafiq is not a Kent supporter just making a general point that mistakes have happened in the past, will in the present and will in the future.

Nothing is more surer with naked eye decisions with one look.

And things a hell of easier will the benefit of hindsight and replay slower down than making decisions in real time.

And sensible rational people appreciate that.

I am making no reference to your good self at all.

Would I do strongly think is that they is a hell of lot more cheating going on by players in cricket and especially football for example than by officials and think it’s totally rich and quite breathtaking at times for players or supporters even to question a official impartially.

 

[chunkyshanhawk53]

Why are we calling him Mr Rafiq?

 

[Aidan11]

Looking at that decision I think if DRS been in place it would have been classed as Umpire's Call as it was close.

Many years ago that would have been not out as any benefit of doubt would go to the batsman.

Given that the umpire only has one chance and looks at it in real time, LBWs are always going to be decided on instinct.

Maybe now the ECB have a pile of money, they can invest in DRS for the county games

 

[Parkside]

I think as happens in football there is some sensible supporters who accept their team get good and bad decisions and are treat no differently from any other particular club/county/team,

And some not soo sensible ones who always think their team gets more bad ones than good.

I would imagine Mr Rafiq in the past would have appealed and got a decision that on reflection and after replay may not have been the best decision.

That’s sport, officials of all sport are human and will make mistakes as happened since well forever

Here we go again!
People express conflicting views which provides the food for forums, lambasted for expressing views which conflict with yours.That particular decision was a bad one in the view of many. It's at a level of cricket termed 1st class. Supporters have the right, therefore,to expect very high standards from professional officials who are paid £40k-£100k for perhaps a maximum of 80 days duty, savour that,minimum £500 per day. No different to any other profession,your medical professional,your children's teacher. They're only human, they make mistakes, so let's just quietly accept it. Really?
Measures should be in place to monitor performances,improve standards and minimise errors- they're absent in cricket.Why haven't supporters the right to question standards and what qualifies you to criticise them for it?
Seem to recall you calling them very insulting names and you continue to criticise.
I await your response.

Maybe now the ECB have a pile of money, they can invest in DRS for the county games

DRS is only guessing with lbw decisions. More monitoring and training of officials is the requirement.
There are,and have been,many excellent umpires. Their skill and knowledge should be imparted toothers.

 

[Raymondo]

Why are we calling him Mr Rafiq?

That’s his name Mr Chunkyshanhawk53.

Would I do strongly think is that they is a hell of lot more cheating going on by players in cricket and especially football for example than by officials and think it’s totally rich and quite breathtaking at times for players or supporters even to question a official impartially.

Is it rich, really? There have been examples of cheating, plus like I say, all officials will have some level of bias whether intentional or unconscious due to the simple fact they’re human.

However as has been pointed out, we’re talking top level sport here, the top of the chosen profession. If a doctor makes a mistake and someone dies do we chalk it up as them simply being human and people make mistakes? Or do we implore the authorities to (rightly) carry out a full and thorough investigation into the whats and whys?

 

[Voice of fair play]

Here we go again!
People express conflicting views which provides the food for forums, lambasted for expressing views which conflict with yours.That particular decision was a bad one in the view of many. It's at a level of cricket termed 1st class. Supporters have the right, therefore,to expect very high standards from professional officials who are paid £40k-£100k for perhaps a maximum of 80 days duty, savour that,minimum £500 per day. No different to any other profession,your medical professional,your children's teacher. They're only human, they make mistakes, so let's just quietly accept it. Really?
Measures should be in place to monitor performances,improve standards and minimise errors- they're absent in cricket.Why haven't supporters the right to question standards and what qualifies you to criticise them for it?
Seem to recall you calling them very insulting names and you continue to criticise.
I await your response.

DRS is only guessing with lbw decisions. More monitoring and training of officials is the requirement.
There are,and have been,many excellent umpires. Their skill and knowledge should be imparted toothers.

I think you have jumped the gun a bit there.

I am simply making the view that I am sympathetic to officials having to make real time decisions.

And it’s a lot easier in hindsight looking over it afterwards with replays

And also making the point that I don’t think it sensible for a certain element of supporters to suggest their club treated any differently than others.

And certainly will continue to drum the point home that I find it quite contradictory for people within sport to question officials integrity!

 

[Parkside]

I think you have jumped the gun a bit there.

I am simply making the view that I am sympathetic to officials having to make real time decisions.

And it’s a lot easier in hindsight looking over it afterwards either way replays

And also making the point that I don’t think it sensible for a certain element of supported to suggest their club treated any differently than others.

And certainly will continue to drum the point home that I find it quite contradictory for people within sport to question officials integrity!

To paraphrase your good self,I think you have misinterpreted my point -i.e.that officials shouldn't be beyond criticism.
Or deliberately avoided it! Any skilled task,by definition,is difficult.
Why should highly paid professional umpires be beyond criticism?

 

[chunkyshanhawk53]

That’s his name Mr Chunkyshanhawk53.


Is it rich, really? There have been examples of cheating, plus like I say, all officials will have some level of bias whether intentional or unconscious due to the simple fact they’re human.

However as has been pointed out, we’re talking top level sport here, the top of the chosen profession. If a doctor makes a mistake and someone dies do we chalk it up as them simply being human and people make mistakes? Or do we implore the authorities to (rightly) carry out a full and thorough investigation into the whats and whys?

It’s weird to call him Mr. Bizarre in fact

 

[Voice of fair play]

That’s his name Mr Chunkyshanhawk53.


Is it rich, really? There have been examples of cheating, plus like I say, all officials will have some level of bias whether intentional or unconscious due to the simple fact they’re human.

However as has been pointed out, we’re talking top level sport here, the top of the chosen profession. If a doctor makes a mistake and someone dies do we chalk it up as them simply being human and people make mistakes? Or do we implore the authorities to (rightly) carry out a full and thorough investigation into the whats and whys?

I don’t think it’s even remotely the same with doctors as people could die.

This is sport, sport where it been proven for 100 years that mistakes inevitable in real time and will happen every season always has.

The problem with a certain element of fans imo ( not the sensible ones) is that they always looking for an angle to claim their side treated worse than others,

tbf it worse in football than cricket.

And because of this any unconscious bias officials may or may not have imo is totally overplayed.

tbf to your argument it probably has happened on the odd occasion in the past.

But in the main 99% of times imo officials will try to honestly give the best decisions they can under the circumstances.

That’s not to say we should not continue to try and improve standards but in the main I will continue to be sympathetic to officials in sport.

 

[leecoo]

Some of the umpiring this season and not just in Durhams game has been very club level. I follow the BBC feed and even they make a comment when a dodgy decision has been made and they seem to be on the increase

 

[Voice of fair play]

To paraphrase your good self,I think you have misinterpreted my point -i.e.that officials shouldn't be beyond criticism.
Or deliberately avoided it! Any skilled task,by definition,is difficult.
Why should highly paid professional umpires be beyond criticism?

I don’t think they should be beyond criticism.

But I certainly think it’s not appreciated enough from some elements of supporters how difficult it is and how easier it is to look at it again after slowed down replays that they obviously never had.

And I definitely think and always will it’s unfair to constantly question their integrity

 

[TheRey]

I thought it looked out

Hit in front of middle and leg and was straightening.

Either way, "Poor Zak" couldve kept it out if he timed it right and stopped his head falling away. Probably would've scored another 4 then got out anyway, it just shortened his agony.

 

[Parkside]

I don’t think they should be beyond criticism.

But I certainly think it’s not appreciated enough from some elements of supporters how difficult it is and how easier it is to look at it again after slowed down replays that they obviously never had.

And I definitely think and always will it’s unfair to constantly question their integrity

Pleased that you finally concede that they're not beyond criticism. The fact is that passionate supporters are irrational no matter how much you ridicule that concept.It's their release valve- is it fair to condemn them for that?
Of course it's a difficult job but you don't dismiss excuse or errors because of that. The more you work at a skill,the more proficient you become at it. They're very well remunerated and if you're not efficient at the task do they not fully deserve mockery?
It's also a little naive to dismiss bias out of hand. Are you totally convinced that weaker referees aren't swayed by baying crowds or powerful managers. Fergie time was a figment of the imagination?
Many Durham supporters are convinced, I was one of them, of 1 umpire,now retired,had an agenda against Durham.
Nice to see you back,anyway, even if I do find your preaching
unreasonable.

 

[Voice of fair play]

Pleased that you finally concede that they're not beyond criticism. The fact is that passionate supporters are irrational no matter how much you ridicule that concept.It's their release valve- is it fair to condemn them for that?
Of course it's a difficult job but you don't dismiss excuse or errors because of that. The more you work at a skill,the more proficient you become at it. They're very well remunerated and if you're not efficient at the task do they not fully deserve mockery?
It's also a little naive to dismiss bias out of hand. Are you totally convinced that weaker referees aren't swayed by baying crowds or powerful managers. Fergie time was a figment of the imagination?
Many Durham supporters are convinced, I was one of them, of 1 umpire,now retired,had an agenda against Durham.
Nice to see you back,anyway, even if I do find your preaching
unreasonable.

When Sunderland were previously in the premier playing away against big clubs weaker ‘refs were apparently influenced by baying crowds’

Yet when Sunderland were the big club in League one at home with the baying crowds according to some they suddenly were strong and ‘ refs were then determined to stand up to the baying crowds!!

If that’s not a classic example of not been sensible and unreasonable I don’t know what is?

Refs and umpires often apparently have agendas against their club.

Never heard one single fan say refs or umpires favour their club.
I genuinely think it’s not fair to condemn fans in the heat of the game in the heat of the passion as of course I agree people irrational in that situation.

But I do think it is fair to criticize when fans on an ongoing basis constantly think their club always get the tough end of the stick.

As most if not all times they just treat the same as any other club/county/team.

There is a stark difference between losing your shit during a match and thinking a wider agenda against your team

 

[Parkside]

Your first two sentences aren't contradictory -rather it enhances the argument that officials can be influenced by crowds. Surprised you can't see that.
I've agreed some criticism is irrational and explained why. I've reasoned why there is this irrationality and can excuse or tolerate it on those grounds rather than adopt a holier than I attitude and condemn it. You don't. As you're entitled to.
There's ample evidence of referees being influenced by crowds and favouring the "big" clubs. You can't see or accept that. Fair enough.
I maintain that the "difficulty" of the task doesn't excuse errors.
You don't. Agree fair enough.
I have no problem with differing viewpoints -it's when it resorts to personal criticism that I can't except. I'm sure you're aware of the terminology used.

Much of the abuse of officials has been eliminated at professional level because of enhanced video surveilance. Officials won't be aware ofRants about them on forums.

 

[GordonMuchallNo1Fan]

That's a dreadful decision

 

[Voice of fair play]

Your first two sentences aren't contradictory -rather it enhances the argument that officials can be influenced by crowds. Surprised you can't see that.
I've agreed some criticism is irrational and explained why. I've reasoned why there is this irrationality and can excuse or tolerate it on those grounds rather than adopt a holier than I attitude and condemn it. You don't. As you're entitled to.
There's ample evidence of referees being influenced by crowds and favouring the "big" clubs. You can't see or accept that. Fair enough.
I maintain that the "difficulty" of the task doesn't excuse errors.
You don't. Agree fair enough.
I have no problem with differing viewpoints -it's when it resorts to personal criticism that I can't except. I'm sure you're aware of the terminology used.

Yeah according to fans refs are influenced by big crowds but only when their team are away from home.

When they at home and have the big crowd refs all of a sudden become brave and stand up to that big crowd.

And these people expect to be taken seriously!

Like I said at the risk of repeating myself I more than accept that irrational behaviour in the heat of the moment.

But when people seriously think the above in the cold light of day and always think their team get bad decisions that is when I suggest it’s nonsense.