Durham v Lancashire [H] C.C. 24/4/26

[chunkyshanhawk53]

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[Ian J]

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Yes. The troll is back

 

[chopsfc007]

Yes. The troll is back

Says the bloke constantly having a go at me and saying personal insults like you did the other day

 

[Raymondo]

No,whatever logic you're using,the fact is we haven't produced a proven established CC player since Potts who was preNorth era. As I said,we'll beg to differ civilly

I don’t mean to be a pedant but McKinney? There’ve also been lads like Michael Jones, Scott Steel and the aforementioned Mitch Killeen who left to pursue their careers elsewhere but who would’ve been part of the long term plan had they stayed. It brings me back to a question I asked earlier though, which you didn’t answer, what constitutes ‘established’ or ‘proven’?

If you (or anyone else) is going to criticise the academy then it’s only fair we get some kind of perspective on what constitutes success so that we can compare it to that standard.

I’m happy to concede the academy isn’t producing as much currently as it has done in its heyday, but (and I’m sorry to labour the point) it’s still producing ‘some’ talent. Given that Potts made his debut in 2017, the season after the demotion and the financial restrictions placed upon the club - I’d be more than happy to agree that the fallow period we’re currently seeing is a direct result of having never fully recovered from that? If anyone is going to have a pop at the Academy then I think it’s right and proper to assess why that might be the case. It isn’t a wild suggestion given the Academy was one of the areas of the club that suffered cutbacks as the county sought to balance the books prior to beginning the journey back to the promised land. It’s also not wild to suggest that many players who have been bounced (the likes of Bushnell, Josh Coughlin, Oliver Gibson) were probably on a much shorter leash due to the tightening of the purse strings. It’s probably unlikely in 2026 that we could be as patient as we were with a Mark Stoneman for example. A player who would go on to achieve international honours, but very much thanks to the patience afforded him and the opportunity he was given to play regularly despite not producing for Durham

If we were in an ideal world where availability and fitness weren’t ever an issue I would suggest our strongest lineup probably contains 7/8 homegrown lads atleast. And while the likes of Raine, Wood, Stokes, etc are all closer to retirement than their debuts, you don’t cycle players of their calibre out of the rotation just for the sake of it. While they’re still producing you’re allowed to pick them so they can’t simply be dismissed out of hand to suit whatever argument is being made.

 

[Parkside]

I don’t mean to be a pedant but McKinney? There’ve also been lads like Michael Jones, Scott Steel and the aforementioned Mitch Killeen who left to pursue their careers elsewhere but who would’ve been part of the long term plan had they stayed. It brings me back to a question I asked earlier though, which you didn’t answer, what constitutes ‘established’ or ‘proven’?

If you (or anyone else) is going to criticise the academy then it’s only fair we get some kind of perspective on what constitutes success so that we can compare it to that standard.
standards
I’m happy to concede the academy isn’t producing as much currently as it has done in its heyday, but (and I’m sorry to labour the point) it’s still producing ‘some’ talent. Given that Potts made his debut in 2017, the season after the demotion and the financial restrictions placed upon the club - I’d be more than happy to agree that the fallow period we’re currently seeing is a direct result of having never fully recovered from that? If anyone is going to have a pop at the Academy then I think it’s right and proper to assess why that might be the case. It isn’t a wild suggestion given the Academy was one of the areas of the club that suffered cutbacks as the county sought to balance the books prior to beginning the journey back to the promised land. It’s also not wild to suggest that many players who have been bounced (the likes of Bushnell, Josh Coughlin, Oliver Gibson) were probably on a much shorter leash due to the tightening of the purse strings. It’s probably unlikely in 2026 that we could be as patient as we were with a Mark Stoneman for example. A player who would go on to achieve international honours, but very much thanks to the patience afforded him and the opportunity he was given to play regularly despite not producing for Durham

If we were in an ideal world whe? c.f.re availability and fitness weren’t ever an issue I would suggest our strongest linequota by tooup probably containTs 7/8 homegrown lads atleast. And while the likes of Raine, Wood, Stokes, etc are all closer to retirement than their debuts, you don’t cycle players of their calibre out of the rotation just for the sake of it. While they’re still producing you’re allowed to pick them so they can’t simply be dismissed out of hand to suit whatever argument is bein made

my argument is quite straightforward and simple.Since the North era no longer develop p layers of proven 1st class standard.i.e. producing an outcome worthy of a place in a standard county side. That criteria should be self-evident and I'm surprised that you even seek clarification.Jones didn't come through the academy,Scott Steel didn't achieve 1st class status.ECB funding is ring fenced,it can't be cut and th club is now in a healthier financial position than ever,without any promised Hundred sale riches.We haven't produced a proven 1st class player in the North era-fact! We clearly have different criteria as to what constitutes a successful academy.I respectfully disagree with you on the issue. I don't have the slightest issue with that

 

[GordonMuchallNo1Fan]

So nigh on 6 and a half weeks until our next county championship home game, absolutely bonkers the scheduling. A couple of 2nd xi home double headers next month which if the weather is fine I'll pop along to watch as they're usually decent enough games to watch. We've had a good start to the season, always good to pick up points especially in April when traditionally the weather is rubbish. The bowling department is a concern in terms of rotation, we don't want to be burning players out, however we are short and it's concerning that Connors is yet again injured. See how we go on Friday, another opportunity for the lads

 

[Raymondo]

my argument is quite straightforward and simple.Since the North era no longer develop p layers of proven 1st class standard.i.e. producing an outcome worthy of a place in a standard county side. That criteria should be self-evident and I'm surprised that you even seek clarification.Jones didn't come through the academy,Scott Steel didn't achieve 1st class status.ECB funding is ring fenced,it can't be cut and th club is now in a healthier financial position than ever,without any promised Hundred sale riches.We haven't produced a proven 1st class player in the North era-fact! We clearly have different criteria as to what constitutes a successful academy.I respectfully disagree with you on the issue. I don't have the slightest issue with that

The clarification was needed because we’ve had players in the side in the era you’re referring to, but you seemingly aren’t counting them. That’s fine, I just wanted to know what the standard is.

Hopefully by the end of this season we’ll see Minto prove his worth and become a regular and perhaps one or two others showing glimpses.

I would like to gently add that it’s probably less the arrival of North and more the departure of Windows mind you, given the wonders he worked.

 

[Parkside]

So nigh on 6 and a half weeks until our next county championship home game, absolutely bonkers the scheduling. A couple of 2nd xi home double headers next month which if the weather is fine I'll pop along to watch as they're usually decent enough games to watch. We've had a good start to the season, always good to pick up points especially in April when traditionally the weather is rubbish. The bowling department is a concern in terms of rotation, we don't want to be burning players out, however we are short and it's concerning that Connors is yet again injured. See how we go on Friday, another opportunity for the lads

Yeh,that Killeen lad would have proved useful cover-pity we p!ssed him off with a derogatory offer. Or did more to retain DeLeede.

The clarification was needed because we’ve had players in the side in the era you’re referring to, but you seemingly aren’t counting them. That’s fine, I just wanted to know what the standard is.

Hopefully by the end of this season we’ll see Minto prove his worth and become a regular and perhaps one or two others showing glimpses.

I would like to gently add that it’s probably less the arrival of North and more the departure of Windows mind you, given the wonders he worked.

Windows has only recently left -his departure can't have had any effect yet. It was Cook who, to me,had an unbelievable eye for spotting potential talent.
Who am I " seemingly aren't counting".

 

[Raymondo]

Yeh,that Killeen lad would have proved useful cover-pity we p!ssed him off with a derogatory offer. Or did more to retain DeLeede.

Windows has only recently left -his departure can't have had any effect yet. It was Cook who, to me,had an unbelievable eye for spotting potential talent.
Who am I " seemingly aren't counting".

You largely overlooked McKinney and there are a few others already mentioned. Minto is obviously part of the bigger picture.

 

[Parkside]

You largely overlooked McKinney and there are a few others already mentioned. Minto is obviously part of the bigger picture.

McKinney and Minto,promising as they are,are not yet established 1st class standard. Can we not agree to differ on this issue and save me have to disprove every counter you make?
Or provide a specific name of one who has established himself in the North era.
I assume "the few others mentioned"are players already established 1st team prior the the North era.

 

[Fleagle]

my argument is quite straightforward and simple.Since the North era no longer develop p layers of proven 1st class standard.i.e. producing an outcome worthy of a place in a standard county side. That criteria should be self-evident and I'm surprised that you even seek clarification.Jones didn't come through the academy,Scott Steel didn't achieve 1st class status.ECB funding is ring fenced,it can't be cut and th club is now in a healthier financial position than ever,without any promised Hundred sale riches.We haven't produced a proven 1st class player in the North era-fact! We clearly have different criteria as to what constitutes a successful academy.I respectfully disagree with you on the issue. I don't have the slightest issue with that

To some extent though, the problem is in the club game, which is in serious decline at senior level in the county compared with “my day”. I really hate to sound like an old man, but many of the clubs seem to be struggling to recruit like they used to. I don’t think the single NE Premier League has worked either. The DSL is sorely missed. And my old club, Stockton, has headed back to the NYSD.

And perhaps this is partly where we notoriously depart in relation to the 18 county championship which I refuse to see as sacrosanct. There is less and less money going to the grass roots up here. Because there is more and more money going to prop up pointless shite like Northamptonshire.

 

[chopsfc007]

Yeh,that Killeen lad would have proved useful cover-pity we p!ssed him off with a derogatory offer. Or did more to retain DeLeede.

Windows has only recently left -his departure can't have had any effect yet. It was Cook who, to me,had an unbelievable eye for spotting potential talent.
Who am I " seemingly aren't counting".

What did we offer Killeen

 

[Parkside]

To some extent though, the problem is in the club game, which is in serious decline at senior level in the county compared with “my day”. I really hate to sound like an old man, but many of the clubs seem to be struggling to recruit like they used to. I don’t think the single NE Premier League has worked either. The DSL is sorely missed. And my old club, Stockton, has headed back to the NYSD.

And perhaps this is partly where we notoriously depart in relation to the 18 county championship which I refuse to see as sacrosanct. There is less and less money going to the grass roots up here. Because there is more and more money going to prop up pointless shite like Northamptonshire.

There's certainly been a gradual decline for years but that's nationwide so that's affecting all county academies excepting perhaps Surrey who have a number of prestigious public schools to recruit from.
On the plus side,most local club sides have far more focus on youth development so that should aid county academies. There's far more money coming from ECB into clubs who have hallmark status and that's to increase significantly from the Hundred windfall.
NEPL is still one of the strongest premier leagues,clubs continue to progress well in national competition. We should,therefore, still have successful academy progression so something is wrong with identification and progression of talent.

What did we offer Killeen

A 1year extension of his development contract with Essex offering lengthier and more lucrative terms. He'd hardly be likely or afford to upsticks otherwise. That should be self evident

 

[Raymondo]

McKinney and Minto,promising as they are,are not yet established 1st class standard.

McKinney has played more or less every game since the beginning of last season (13 out of 17). The only ones he’s missed have been when he’s been with the Lions from memory. I’d argue he’s ‘established’.

Can we not agree to differ on this issue and save me have to disprove every counter you make?

See above.

 

[Parkside]

McKinney has played more or less every game since the beginning of last season (13 out of 17). The only ones he’s missed have been when he’s been with the Lions from memory. I’d argue he’s ‘established’.



See above.

He was also dropped from the team. I very much hope he confirms his promise -he's clearly a level-headed and hard working lad.
I still await the names of "others who have been mentioned " who have established themselves in recent years enabling this tiresome discussion to be put to bed.
Potts the most recent to my knowledge,debut 2017,pre North arrival 2018.

 

[Raymondo]

He was also dropped from the team. I very much hope he confirms his promise -he's clearly a level-headed and hard working lad.
I still await the names of "others who have been mentioned " who have established themselves in recent years enabling this tiresome discussion to be put to bed.

If it’s causing you pain stop replying

It was only a few posts ago you were all for a healthy debate, but nobody is forcing you to reply.

I’ve already mentioned several homegrown players on this thread who have played for the first team in recent years - but seemingly they don’t meet your criteria, which was why I pushed you to define what was acceptable to you in the first place. That’s fine as far as I’m concerned, we already disagree on the general performance of the academy and we’re allowed to. I concede it’s having a lean spell when compared to previous generations, but I don’t see it as being as big a problem as you appear to and I have every faith it’ll produce again.

 

[Parkside]

If it’s causing you pain stop replying

It was only a few posts ago you were all for a healthy debate, but nobody is forcing you to reply.

I’ve already mentioned several homegrown players on this thread who have played for the first team in recent years - but seemingly they don’t meet your criteria, which was why I pushed you to define what was acceptable to you in the first place. That’s fine as far as I’m concerned, we already disagree on the general performance of the academy and we’re allowed to. I concede it’s having a lean spell when compared to previous generations, but I don’t see it as being as big a problem as you appear to and I have every faith it’ll produce again.

I very much hope you're correct and my doubts are proven unfounded. Patience has been the key in the past,obviously youngsters have been given opportunities in recent years but have been discarded prematurely imo. Hopefully, Benkenstein can be the catalyst to reignite the development. It's enjoyable to have debate with contrasting views but with civil rapport maintained.

 

[Raymondo]

I very much hope you're correct and my doubts are proven unfounded. Patience has been the key in the past,obviously youngsters have been given opportunities in recent years but have been discarded prematurely imo. Hopefully, Benkenstein can be the catalyst to reignite the development. It's enjoyable to have debate with contrasting views but with civil rapport maintained.

Absolutely. I’m fairly sure we both want the same outcome for the Durham boys