Legends Way fan vote: choose the 14 legends

[Eggman]

But the vast majority of that was not when she was at Sunderland so as far as I'm concerned is irrelevant for these purposes.

And if you're taking into account achievements after leaving SAFC as a kid, why was a locally born kid who came through our youth teams, captained a side who won the Club World Cup, Champions League, Premier League, FA Cup, League Cup, and has won 89 caps for England not included in the nominations?

or Jordan Pickford ?

 

[HarrogateMackem]

Just realised no James Allen FFS.

One of the club founders who also played in the team. I know he eventually split off and formed Sunderland Albion after a number of years but come on...

The only way they save this is by honouring some of the obvious names missing off the final list in another way.

The likes of Allen probably deserve their own statue or plaque so hopefully that is the idea.

They won't do that unless they can make money off it, lets be honest.

It was only after they saw Everton make money off this same idea at their new stadium that they even bothered with any commemoration for our history beyond the one statue.

 

[TZMouk]

Fair enough you have your view. But as you say yourself she is a 'legend' of women's football, not Sunderland. This is a "Sunderland legends" installation, not a "football generally".

I would say she should be honoured at Wembley or Man City.

Would you argue Michael Carrick is a legend at Newcastle? Or Alan Shearer a legend at Southampton?

It's ludicrous.

Hasn't won enough Shearer

I wouldn't begrudge Pickford getting on in the future if he wins the World Cup this summer, that's roughly the same scenario (aside from the obvious that some don't care at all about the womens team - which whilst I can't pretend to be the biggest week to week fan of womens football, I do think as fans we should want any side representing the badge to do well).

I will say the whole argument relies on the fact that I fully expect this to be a yearly thing, and we're not just going "Ah wey there's our legends lads".

Thinking about it we should probably have said from the off it was 13 from the mens team and 1 from the womens team, I'm sure some would have complained from the outset, but it would have been more palatable following the results.

I know you said you wouldn't want your stone to be next to someone you deem not to be a "legend", but you'd be right next to the spot where a bunch of parents explain to their daughters that yes a women has made the legends walk. I think I'd get some satisfaction out of that if it was me.

 

[L-R-W]

or Jordan Pickford ?

Or Colin Todd. Or Brian Clough. Or Jim Baxter. Or Roy Keane. Or Chris Waddle. Or Andy Cole.

They're either judged just on what they did at Sunderland (clearly that should be the case IMO), in which case Jill Scott is just someone who left the club at the age of 19 after playing a few games.

Or they are judged on their whole careers in which case again Jill Scott wouldn't feature.

 

[TZMouk]

But the vast majority of that was not when she was at Sunderland so as far as I'm concerned is irrelevant for these purposes.

And if you're taking into account achievements after leaving SAFC as a kid, why was a locally born kid who came through our youth teams, captained a side who won the Club World Cup, Champions League, Premier League, FA Cup, League Cup, and has won 89 caps for England not included in the nominations?

I see that, but not for me. I think Jill herself has came out and said if it wasn't for Sunderland, and the North East being so open in terms of girls playing football, she might never have gotten in to it. It's not exactly the same scenario as if say Luca Stephenson went on to big things after moving from our youth sides to Liverpool's.

I think the fact that Henderson hasn't won anything with England could keep him off the nominations list, but if Pickford (or Henderson if he somehow gets a seat on the plane) win the World Cup this year, I fully expect they'd both be up for nominations in the future when they retire.

 

[L-R-W]

I see that, but not for me. I think Jill herself has came out and said if it wasn't for Sunderland, and the North East being so open in terms of girls playing football, she might never have gotten in to it. It's not exactly the same scenario as if say Luca Stephenson went on to big things after moving from our youth sides to Liverpool's.

I think the fact that Henderson hasn't won anything with England could keep him off the nominations list, but if Pickford (or Henderson if he somehow gets a seat on the plane) win the World Cup this year, I fully expect they'd both be up for nominations in the future when they retire.

I think she has come out and said lots of things, but none of that is relevant. If people want to recognise her footballing career elsewhere, I've got no issue with that, crack on. If Sunderland was good for her, great.

There is no rationale for recognising her as a Sunderland legend, except brand awareness at this specific point in time.

 

[TZMouk]

I think she has come out and said lots of things, but none of that is relevant. If people want to recognise her footballing career elsewhere, I've got no issue with that, crack on. If Sunderland was good for her, great.

There is no rationale for recognising her as a Sunderland legend, except brand awareness at this specific point in time.

Well you can disagree with the rationale but there is one

She's a legend of the women's game that started her career at her home town team of Sunderland, some people have deemed that enough to make it. There's no set criteria to it.

 

[L-R-W]

Well you can disagree with the rationale but there is one

She's a legend of the women's game that started her career at her home town team of Sunderland, some people have deemed that enough to make it. There's no set criteria to it.

OK - I should have been more specific. The rationale which you have given to include Jill Scott has been concocted only for Jill Scott, and hasn't applied to anyone else in the club's 147 year history, and we don't know if that decision was made by the club's PR and marketing people or people who watched her eat a kangaroo penis on I'm a Celebrity.

 

[Stubbs ftm]

Not sure on Defoe like…

It'll get taken out after 6 months

 

[Chop Sauce]

Well you can disagree with the rationale but there is one

She's a legend of the women's game that started her career at her home town team of Sunderland, some people have deemed that enough to make it. There's no set criteria to it.

Created to shoehorn her in. Worra joke.

 

[MiddleAgedMan]

Hasn't won enough Shearer

I wouldn't begrudge Pickford getting on in the future if he wins the World Cup this summer, that's roughly the same scenario (aside from the obvious that some don't care at all about the womens team - which whilst I can't pretend to be the biggest week to week fan of womens football, I do think as fans we should want any side representing the badge to do well).

I will say the whole argument relies on the fact that I fully expect this to be a yearly thing, and we're not just going "Ah wey there's our legends lads".

Thinking about it we should probably have said from the off it was 13 from the mens team and 1 from the womens team, I'm sure some would have complained from the outset, but it would have been more palatable following the results.

I know you said you wouldn't want your stone to be next to someone you deem not to be a "legend", but you'd be right next to the spot where a bunch of parents explain to their daughters that yes a women has made the legends walk. I think I'd get some satisfaction out of that if it was me.

I think you are slightly giving me unfair sexism here. It's nothing against women per se, it's Jill Scott is simply not a legend of SAFC full stop. There are probably dozens of more deserving women. Ramshaw definitely. Probably Reay. Steph Houghton.

There is a separate arguement that all being equal probably no women have achieved what many men have in our history. The women's team has existed for a much shorter time and been less successful.

 

[chriswallace85]

Fair enough you have your view. But as you say yourself she is a 'legend' of women's football, not Sunderland. This is a "Sunderland legends" installation, not a "football generally".

I would say she should be honoured at Wembley or Man City.

Would you argue Michael Carrick is a legend at Newcastle? Or Alan Shearer a legend at Southampton?

It's ludicrous.

As I said at the time yesterday, if they wanna honour someone who turned out for the lasses a few times before making her name elsewhere, why not stick the paving stone outside of Eppleton Colliery Welfare, where she actually played.


Everyone knows it's a complete farce that she's been voted in. In reality, she should never have even made the shortlist.


Why not Beth Mead? Steph Houghton? Lucy Bronze?


Better still why not Bobby Gurney? Cesc Irwin? Billy Hughes? Johnny Mapson? Brian Clough? Charlie Buchan?


It's a joke really. Everyone knows it is.


She's in 'cos she's a bit part on a Podcast with Roy Keane (who incidentally warrants a far greater shout at making the list than her) and mentions she's a supporter now n then.

 

[MadMackem10]

Not sure on Defoe like…

Legend means more than just what someone does on the pitch. What he did with Bradley will never be forgotten, he deserves one for that alone.

 

[MiddleAgedMan]

I see that, but not for me. I think Jill herself has came out and said if it wasn't for Sunderland, and the North East being so open in terms of girls playing football, she might never have gotten in to it. It's not exactly the same scenario as if say Luca Stephenson went on to big things after moving from our youth sides to Liverpool's.

I think the fact that Henderson hasn't won anything with England could keep him off the nominations list, but if Pickford (or Henderson if he somehow gets a seat on the plane) win the World Cup this year, I fully expect they'd both be up for nominations in the future when they retire.

Your opening paragraph is literally irrelevant. Completely irrelevant

Legend means more than just what someone does on the pitch. What he did with Bradley will never be forgotten, he deserves one for that alone.

But like the Jill Scott was a legend for Man City arguement that seems to be justifying her pick for some, it's a Pandora's box of what people have done off the pitch.

I'm sure a lot of people have done things off the pitch some not public

 

[chriswallace85]

Do an image search of "Jill Scott Footballer Sunderland" on google, and there's not even a picture of her in our strip ffs.

Do an imagine search of Jill Scott playing for Sunderand, and there's still not one single picture of her.

What an absolute farce.

 

[Chop Sauce]

Total farce

 

[chriswallace85]

It really isn't a wind up. "Legend" is a holistic term, hence it's not just our top X appearance holders.

Really don't see the issue at all. Obviously you're entitled to be disappointed about whoever you end up next to, I just don't think it's a binary "yes"/"no" as to who makes the list.

Local lass, came through our Women's youth teams, second most capped England player of all time, won the first major international trophy for either of our international sides since 66. In the Football Hall of Fame, and overall she's a good representation of what a Mackem should be.

I do think it's somewhat symbolic of the impact of Sunderland AFC on women's football, especially at a time when there was less impetus on it, that we should celebrate more, and maybe we would have if we weren't shafted by the WSL in 2011. Which was after Jill had left mind, which obviously brings up the next point that a lot of her accolades were after her Sunderland career, but I'm sure we'll have the same arguments in a few years when Pickford wins England a major trophy and then gets selected...

I don't think anyone could argue she's a legend of the women's game. Is being local and coming through the Sunderland women's youth teams enough to be deemed a Sunderland legend? Obviously enough people do, like I say I don't think it's a massive scandal that we're celebrating "one of our own".

Sorry, but what an absolute load of hoss shite this post is.

Let's stick Ally McCoist up there for his exploits in Scotland shall we? He's a good pundit too.

Antoine Semenyo might win the treble this season. Get him up there.

Ridley Scott's from South Shields, he's made some films n that. Get him up there.

 

[North Yorks Mackem]

Do an image search of "Jill Scott Footballer Sunderland" on google, and there's not even a picture of her in our strip ffs.

Do an imagine search of Jill Scott playing for Sunderand, and there's still not one single picture of her.

What an absolute farce.

Did she actually play a competitive game for the women's team?

 

[Botchie]

or Jordan Pickford ?

Had one season in our first team.

 

[Balti Man]

I wish they hadn't done a fan vote in all honesty and let Rob Mason choose! We're no doubt going to see the classic recency bias and the fact people don't know a lot about our history understandably.
I really hope we can celebrate our grand history, and shout about stuff beyond '73! Some names for people to consider (imo).

1. Raich Carter is regarded as the greatest player ever to play for our fantastic team. A massively gifted inside forward who captained the club to the 1936 league title and the 1937 FA Cup. A local lad too.
2. Len Shackleton, "the Clown Prince of Football," was a maverick entertainer who dazzled crowds at Roker Park with outrageous skill and an maveric streak that made him a fans' favourite but kept him on the wrong side of the football establishment, earning him far fewer England caps than he deserved
3. Ted Doig was a Scottish goalkeeper who joined Sunderland in 1890 and spent 14 years at the club, winning the league title and establishing himself as one of the finest keepers of the Victorian era.
4. Johnny Campbell, another Scot, was a prolific striker during the "Team of All the Talents" period in the 1890s when Sunderland won three league championships in four years, a dominance that has never really been matched.
5. Charlie Buchan arrived in 1911 and went on to score 224 goals for the club across 16 years, making him one of the greatest forwards in English football before the Second World War
6. Bobby Gurney holds the club's all-time scoring record with 228 goals between 1925 and 1939, and was the spearhead of the 1936 championship and 1937 FA Cup winning sides.
7. George Holley was a skillful inside forward who scored over 150 goals in the decade before the First World War, won 10 England caps, and is probably the most unjustly forgotten great player in Sunderland's history imo.
8. James Allan, founded the club in 1879 as a schoolteacher, making him the reason any of this exists at all.

I imagine Quinny is in with a shout, and Gary Bennett and Super Kev - as they're within our lifetime. And Hurley is obviously amazing too - but he does have the gates?

Johnny Campbell definitely