SACK MOTT!

[Provider]

I do think the one day World Cup was as bad as any tournament England have ever played considering they went into as second favorites and was a absolute shit show no bones about and all concerned need to take that responsibility.

The test series was lost before we started the difference in quality of the spin bowling department in terms of capability and experience was simply massive, as big as it’s ever been between them two sides on spin bowling alone, we were never going to win, we actually put up more of a fight than expected and were in some games.

However like I said that could have been because India were missing some key players.

In conclusion it’s 100% right to slaughter the team for the one day World Cup performances and it’s was a humiliation, but imo it wasn’t for test series in India.

It may not have been a humiliation but for someone to say how proud they were of how we performed goes far too far the other way IMO. We lost 4-1. Three of the defeats being heavy and our victory narrow. Even with the difference in class in the spin department I can't see how anyone can think we overperformed and proud. The batting was reckless throughout IMO and we only managed that one victory because of Ollie Pope.

 

[Voice of fair play]

It may not have been a humiliation but for someone to say how proud they were of how we performed goes far too far the other way IMO. We lost 4-1. Three of the defeats being heavy and our victory narrow. Even with the difference in class in the spin department I can't see how anyone can think we overperformed and proud. The batting was reckless throughout IMO and we only managed that one victory because of Ollie Pope.

Yeah proud is going too far totally agree.

But so is humiliation, it’s somewhere in between.

The batting was reckless at times but not throughout they were tests and innings where we were too cautious.

Either way on Indian pitches we were totally knackered looking at the respective spin attacks.

If you look purely on the spin alone it’s was like a premier league side playing a non league side such was the gulf

Everyone knew before we were going to get beat and predicted as such before hand

I do agree they was certainly one or two tests where we were too reckless and lessons need to be learnt from it, but not that they were reckless throughout

 

[MustardAndOnions]

These are the facts that I'm on about.
We lost the test series in India 4-1
A 28 run victory,an innings defeat,a 5 wicket defeat,a 450 run defeat and a 106 run defeat.
In the ICC World Cup we finished 7th in the eliminator table below all the major cricketing nations,nowhere near to claiming a semi-final place.
I thought we were ill-prepared for both tournaments which to my mind is a management responsibility.
Humiliation is obviously a subjective term and whilst you're fully entitled to your own interpretation I'm surprised that you appear shocked by mine.

We were humiliated in the 50 over World Cup aye

We weren’t humiliated in India

Also do yourself disservice by making a ridiculous claim that our World Cup under Buttler was down to Morgan. It wasn’t. Morgan was in charge the World Cup before and we were shite.

I’ve criticized mott and Buttler several times and would move on after this tournament, but not giving them credit is pretty poor.

It may not have been a humiliation but for someone to say how proud they were of how we performed goes far too far the other way IMO. We lost 4-1. Three of the defeats being heavy and our victory narrow. Even with the difference in class in the spin department I can't see how anyone can think we overperformed and proud. The batting was reckless throughout IMO and we only managed that one victory because of Ollie Pope.

Can’t agree, ask any fan who was on that tour and they’ll agree,

They just have better players than us

We can’t bat like they can against their bowlers

We’ve tried for over a decade

Yet people moan when we try something else

Yeah proud is going too far totally agree.

But so is humiliation, it’s somewhere in between.

The batting was reckless at times but not throughout they were tests and innings where we were too cautious.

Either way on Indian pitches we were totally knackered looking at the respective spin attacks.

If you look purely on the spin alone it’s was like a premier league side playing a non league side such was the gulf

Everyone knew before we were going to get beat and predicted as such before hand

I do agree they was certainly one or two tests where we were too reckless and lessons need to be learnt from it, but not that they were reckless throughout

Our spinners had like 1 test between them

It’s unfair to judge them by same metrics

 

[Parkside]

We were humiliated in the 50 over World Cup aye

We weren’t humiliated in India

Also do yourself disservice by making a ridiculous claim that our World Cup under Buttler was down to Morgan. It wasn’t. Morgan was in charge the World Cup before and we were shite.

I’ve criticized mott and Buttler several times and would move on after this tournament, but not giving them credit is pretty poor.

In my opinion our resurgence as a white ball outfit was down to the positive attitude and confidence that Morgan engendered in the side and it remained long after Morgan's form deserted him.Hence I give him credit for successes afterwards.
The humiliation was specifically referring to the White ball performance in India although performance in the test series hardly deserves credit given that it was a frequently understrength opposition.

 

[Turner the Cat]

I read a couple of quotes from Rob Key that were really the cherry on the cake for me.

First was about the kookaburra trial in the first two rounds of the season this year. Pretty much everyone thought it was a disaster and completely turgid apart from Rob Key.

“I think it’s been fantastic,” said Key. “You see what four-day cricket is meant to be. I’ve watched quite a bit this week and seen some bloody good cricket. I would use the Kookaburra all the time. English cricket would be much better off for it.”

The other I cant find but was a quote about the relationship between the England cricket team and county cricket being one of unavoidable dependence. It showed a very negative attitude and underlined for me his harmful attitide towards county cricket where if he didnt need county cricket then hed be very happy without it.

 

[Voice of fair play]

We were humiliated in the 50 over World Cup aye

We weren’t humiliated in India

Also do yourself disservice by making a ridiculous claim that our World Cup under Buttler was down to Morgan. It wasn’t. Morgan was in charge the World Cup before and we were shite.

I’ve criticized mott and Buttler several times and would move on after this tournament, but not giving them credit is pretty poor.


Can’t agree, ask any fan who was on that tour and they’ll agree,

They just have better players than us

We can’t bat like they can against their bowlers

We’ve tried for over a decade

Yet people moan when we try something else


Our spinners had like 1 test between them

It’s unfair to judge them by same metrics

Well yeah that my point our spinners had one test between them and theirs countless and in their conditions.

Therefore it was near enough impossible if not totally impossible to compete on those terms and considering that did better than expected imo

I read a couple of quotes from Rob Key that were really the cherry on the cake for me.

First was about the kookaburra trial in the first two rounds of the season this year. Pretty much everyone thought it was a disaster and completely turgid apart from Rob Key.

“I think it’s been fantastic,” said Key. “You see what four-day cricket is meant to be. I’ve watched quite a bit this week and seen some bloody good cricket. I would use the Kookaburra all the time. English cricket would be much better off for it.”

The other I cant find but was a quote about the relationship between the England cricket team and county cricket being one of unavoidable dependence. It showed a very negative attitude and underlined for me his harmful attitide towards county cricket where if he didnt need county cricket then hed be very happy without it.

Yeah have to wholeheartedly agree and said at the time the kookaburra ball was a trial that never worked in the slightest and made the county championship boring which nobody wants or should want

 

[Turner the Cat]

Well yeah that my point our spinners had one test between them and theirs countless and in their conditions.

Therefore it was near enough impossible if not totally impossible to compete on those terms and considering that did better than expected imo

We got the balance wrong at the ODI WC with a lack of younger players meaning that at the next ODI WC pretty much none of the last squad will be there.

while im glad we gave youngsters opportunities in India, we then went to the opposite extreme with the test series by having too much reliance on young players with little to no experience playing in the sub continent and in international cricket. It was a big ask.


We certainly need to think more about how we get the balance of squads right, think long term and develop and prepare players better for playing for England.

 

[Provider]

Can’t agree, ask any fan who was on that tour and they’ll agree,

They just have better players than us

We can’t bat like they can against their bowlers

We’ve tried for over a decade

Yet people moan when we try something else

I'm not sure what relevance actually being on the tour has on giving on opinion on our performance to be honest mate.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "bat like them against their bowlers".

Many of the shots were reckless and needless in my opinion.

I've never been a huge fan of this "Bazball" or the way in which this regime go about selecting the team. Admittedly this made me look stupid for a long time but I still think it's an approach that will always fall short against the real top class teams.

A bit more composure and a bit of a more measured approach and the series in India would have been a lot closer.

 

[MustardAndOnions]

I'm not sure what relevance actually being on the tour has on giving on opinion on our performance to be honest mate.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "bat like them against their bowlers".

Many of the shots were reckless and needless in my opinion.

I've never been a huge fan of this "Bazball" or the way in which this regime go about selecting the team. Admittedly this made me look stupid for a long time but I still think it's an approach that will always fall short against the real top class teams.

A bit more composure and a bit of a more measured approach and the series in India would have been a lot closer.

Selection has been so much better than before they took over, I have no idea how you can say that

Can’t believe anyone thinks this

Burns over Crawley and Duckett. No thanks,

I do wonder if I’m watching the same game as others at time, but then again people use sport as an outlet to moan I guess.

Last bit just isn’t true is it, and history proves that.

In my opinion our resurgence as a white ball outfit was down to the positive attitude and confidence that Morgan engendered in the side and it remained long after Morgan's form deserted him.Hence I give him credit for successes afterwards.
The humiliation was specifically referring to the White ball performance in India although performance in the test series hardly deserves credit given that it was a frequently understrength opposition.

Agree on World Cup aye, terrible and I’d have replaced captain and coach

Sorry but to credit a World Cup on a man long gone I can’t agree with.

The biggest reason is that Morgan remained stubborn on Hales, which was really poor on his part

Hales played a massive part in the win, especially the India game, so can’t agree on that

 

[Parkside]

Selection has been so much better than before they took over, I have no idea how you can say that

Can’t believe anyone thinks this

Burns over Crawley and Duckett. No thanks,

I do wonder if I’m watching the same game as others at time, but then again people use sport as an outlet to moan I guess.

Last bit just isn’t true is it, and history proves that.


Agree on World Cup aye, terrible and I’d have replaced captain and coach

Sorry but to credit a World Cup on a man long gone I can’t agree with.

The biggest reason is that Morgan remained stubborn on Hales, which was really poor on his part

Hales played a massive part in the win, especially the India game, so can’t agree on that

Well we don't know the reason that Morgan excluded Hales; it could be wholly justifable so imo it would be unfair toz criticise him on the issue.
On that World Cup win presumably I have my chronology wrong - I thought that Morgan immediately preceded Buttler and Mott

 

[Fleagle]

We were certainly comprehensively thrashed in India. Humiliated may be a bit strong, and in particular harsh on the current team, who are a product of the English game. But to some extent, it is humiliating that we have effectively accepted as posters do above that we cannot possibly be competitive in that scenario on their pitches and facing their attack. At the very least, it is a tame surrender. And we haven’t been that much more competitive in Australian conditions for a good while either.

It’s true that it is harder to play away in the modern era. But it feels like we’ve given up even trying. And this is why I have a little sympathy for the kookaburra experiment. Even though it produced boring cricket. The thrashing in India is the inevitable consequence of a domestic game in which fat 45-year-old medium pace trundlers can be effective. To the extent that by tolerating this, we have to some degree accepted that we will not be able to learn to compete on Indian or Australian wickets, that is leaning towards being humiliating.

 

[MustardAndOnions]

Well we don't know the reason that Morgan excluded Hales; it could be wholly justifable so imo it would be unfair toz criticise him on the issue.
On that World Cup win presumably I have my chronology wrong - I thought that Morgan immediately preceded Buttler and Mott

He did but he had his own t20 World Cup in Dubai where we weren’t great

It’s t20 you have to be positive evrry ball, not sure you can credit him with a t20 World Cup win few years after he left like

 

[Parkside]

He did but he had his own t20 World Cup in Dubai where we weren’t great

It’s t20 you have to be positive evrry ball, not sure you can credit him with a t20 World Cup win few years after he left like

Just checking back. Morgan resigned the White ball captaincy in early 2022 and the 1T20_World cup was won later in that year So,on a matter of fact, it was 10 months NOT a few years since he's left. I'm arguing his influence still lingered.
I rest my case

 

[Turner the Cat]

Who would people like to see as our new white ball coach and captain?

 

[Silly Point]

Who would people like to see as our new white ball coach and captain?

Coach Morgan
Captain? More difficult. There are no obvious candidates in the current side, all too brain dead or immature. Possibly as a stop gap someone like Malan?

 

[MustardAndOnions]

Just checking back. Morgan resigned the White ball captaincy in early 2022 and the 1T20_World cup was won later in that year So,on a matter of fact, it was 10 months NOT a few years since he's left. I'm arguing his influence still lingered.
I rest my case

No it didn’t

It’s t20

He was shite in the one he captained, Buttler came in and won it, yet somehow Morgan gets the credit

Only in England

Coach Morgan
Captain? More difficult. There are no obvious candidates in the current side, all too brain dead or immature. Possibly as a stop gap someone like Malan?

Malan?!?

You’re very harsh like. Some fantastic players and characters in our team and on the edges

I’m constantly amazed the criticism English cricket gets, I almost wonder if people were alive in the 90s

Things are pretty good you know

Who would people like to see as our new white ball coach and captain?

Hard to say like, only those in dressing room know who the good cricket brains are

Always plenty options

50 over cricket will slowly moved to the margins it’s just a t20 job really

 

[Parkside]

No it didn’t

It’s t20

He was shite in the one he captained, Buttler came in and won it, yet somehow Morgan gets the credit

Only in England

if the above are responses to my post, ,Sorry, but I can't make any sense of them.
I've nothing more to add on the issue.

 

[Silly Point]

No it didn’t

It’s t20

He was shite in the one he captained, Buttler came in and won it, yet somehow Morgan gets the credit

Only in England


Malan?!?

You’re very harsh like. Some fantastic players and characters in our team and on the edges

I’m constantly amazed the criticism English cricket gets, I almost wonder if people were alive in the 90s

Things are pretty good you know


Hard to say like, only those in dressing room know who the good cricket brains are

Always plenty options

50 over cricket will slowly moved to the margins it’s just a t20 job really

Would Indian or Australian fans stand for the disaster at the last ODI World Cup and the inconsistent at best performances in this competition? Why should we stand for it?

 

[MustardAndOnions]

Would Indian or Australian fans stand for the disaster at the last ODI World Cup and the inconsistent at best performances in this competition? Why should we stand for it?

We’ve won 2 world cups since India last won anything

 

[Voice of fair play]

I'm not sure what relevance actually being on the tour has on giving on opinion on our performance to be honest mate.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "bat like them against their bowlers".

Many of the shots were reckless and needless in my opinion.

I've never been a huge fan of this "Bazball" or the way in which this regime go about selecting the team. Admittedly this made me look stupid for a long time but I still think it's an approach that will always fall short against the real top class teams.

A bit more composure and a bit of a more measured approach and the series in India would have been a lot closer.

There was a lot more composure and measured approach the previous time we toured India and we were absolutely slaughtered.