Batth to Norwich ** confirmed **

[Ilios]

And yet last season, with five or six centre halves, we ended up with only one of them fit - and even that one was makeshift.

With our injury record, they'd get minutes, no doubt.

You're all still talking long term. I've said at least five times now that I'm talking about the here and now. If Ballard is injured on Wednesday, Seelt and Triantis don't look anywhere near ready and Alese and Pembele are injured.
I'm all for players developing but not for throwing them in at the deep end when they look more likely to sink than swim, in the short term.

I literally quoted you and responded. 'I'd rather give those minutes to Seelt'. He fits the way we play, hasnt had any game time worth judging him on, and there's no point in stockpiling 42 players in every position in case 'the end of last season' happens again and again, and we get 40 CBs injured at the same time and then have to play a team of small children over 2 legs against the Chicago Bulls...I don't think we can account for that.

Norwich conceded 6 the other day and would still rather play Shane Duffy and Gibson than put Batth anyway near the starting 11...meanwhile we're 4th in the table, with the 2nd best GD in the league.

 

[Dodgy]

I literally quoted you and responded. 'I'd rather give those minutes to Seelt'. He fits the way we play, hasnt had any game time worth judging him on...

He hasn't looked great at U21 level. That suggests to me that he's not going to look the part at championship level yet. We were cruising on Friday and he was brought on (at right back) in the 87th minute for what I believe were his first league minutes.

If Mowbray fancied the lad at all, surely he'd have been given a few minutes when we were 5 up against Southampton.

 

[Ilios]

He hasn't looked great at U21 level. That suggests to me that he's not going to look the part at championship level yet. We were cruising on Friday and he was brought on (at right back) in the 87th minute for what I believe were his first league minutes.

If Mowbray fancied the lad at all, surely he'd have been given a few minutes when we were 5 up against Southampton.

I couldn't care less what he does at U21 level tbf. He's played 60-odd games in the Dutch 2nd division and we paid 1.5m for him. I would have thought we'd bring him on earlier at Sheff Wed and take Ballard off mind, so I don't quite know he came on late and went to RB. Maybe he's not gained Mowbray trust yet, maybe he's not there yet in terms of fitness etc. We'll never know if he never plays though.

 

[Dodgy]

I couldn't care less what he does at U21 level tbf. He's played 60-odd games in the Dutch 2nd division and we paid 1.5m for him. I would have thought we'd bring him on earlier at Sheff Wed and take Ballard off mind, so I don't quite know he came on late and went to RB. Maybe he's not gained Mowbray trust yet, maybe he's not there yet in terms of fitness etc. We'll never know if he never plays though.

So you're agreeing that IN THE SHORT TERM it looks like he might not be ready?

Thanks. It took a while but we got there in the end.

 

[Ilios]

So you're agreeing that IN THE SHORT TERM it looks like he might not be ready?

Thanks. It took a while but we got there in the end.

Might, absolutely. In the same way that we might concede 3, 4, or 5 with Batth in our side...we know one of those things is true, we don't know about the other yet.

It might have been said that Ekwah 'wasn't ready' even after playing a couple of games for us, or Alese, or Patterson, or Hume, or Onien (people still say it, 54 seasons later). Seelt has played 10 minutes.

Would I be concerned if Ballard was carried off on Wednesday? Absolutely. Because he's the best CB we've had at the club for about 7 or 8 years at least. If Batth was the stand-in, we'd have to change our playing style to accommodate his lack of pace/mobility and lack of ability to carry the ball. With Seelt/Alese, we probably wouldn't.

I can't believe we're still talking about a 33 year old CB who can't get a game for Norwich, while we have one of the best defensive records in the league. Batth played nearly every league game last year and we conceded nearly 60 goals.

 

[Dodgy]

I can't believe we're still talking about a 33 year old CB who can't get a game for Norwich, while we have one of the best defensive records in the league. Batth played nearly every league game last year and we conceded nearly 60 goals.

Oh, I fully agree and I've said umpteen times over on here that him being player of the year was ridiculous, but in the short term, I'd still rather he was backup.

 

[tony_not_in_london]

I asked about short term, though.

It's great and it's exciting but unless we go up, we'll lose a lot of the exciting young players.

I'd rather have a couple of "been there, done that" players until the inexperienced players get a little more bedding in.

Pritch is the most experienced fit player in our squad and I think that that's shown over the last few games.

Long term though, you're spot on, but I didn't ask that...

I get what you are saying but still think that if you want to make big profits you have to be prepared to take big risks

If we go down the “balanced squad” route we will find ourselves competing with the likes of Southampton, Leeds, Norwich, Middlesbrough etc for Championship standard experienced players, having to pay the market rate, and having mucked up our last round of parachute payments (or Chuckle Brothers had it away on their toes with them) will find it hard to compete.

Going down the youth development, extreme possession football model does carry risks - as we saw last season when we were blatantly bullied by eg Burnley second half at SoL and Luton at their place. Also teams now arriving to park bus and then hit us in the break.

But if we are prepared to take those risks eventually our young talented lads will learn from experience- look at the way Dan Neil does not get caught in possession so much or how Patto positions himself for corners and free kicks

It just requires a bit of patience and support from fans. But that is coming too

Amazing time to be a Sunderland fan considering the situation just a few short years ago

 

[Dodgy]

If we go down the “balanced squad” route we will find ourselves competing with the likes of Southampton, Leeds, Norwich, Middlesbrough etc for Championship standard experienced players, having to pay the market rate...

My entire point is that, we don't want to do that and won't need to once or inexperienced players are bedded in but I'd far sooner bed them in than throw them in.

Your points are all very valid, of course, but as I've said six times now, I'm only talking short term. The model was to bring in free, experienced players to help the young lads. Once the young lads are experienced, they can bring on the next crop of young lads - as you can already see happening - but I don't think we're quite there yet, personally.

I'll say again, for this reason I would have kept Batth until January.

If Ballard or O'Nien get injured, heaven forbid, we're relying on two players with 8 minutes of league experience between them.

 

[tony_not_in_london]

My entire point is that, we don't want to do that and won't need to once or inexperienced players are bedded in but I'd far sooner bed them in than throw them in.

Your points are all very valid, of course, but as I've said six times now, I'm only talking short term. The model was to bring in free, experienced players to help the young lads. Once the young lads are experienced, they can bring on the next crop of young lads - as you can already see happening - but I don't think we're quite there yet, personally.

I'll say again, for this reason I would have kept Batth until January.

If Ballard or O'Nien get injured, heaven forbid, we're relying on two players with 8 minutes of league experience between them.

Not sure there is so much difference between us - just a matter of degree

I think if the young lads show enough in training and have been scouted properly then we should not be surprised to see them start without league experience

Look at Amad - Man United bought him after he had played four senior games for 30m euros. It didn’t work so well for him at Rangers but within our structure he developed in a matter of months to one of the first names on the team sheet

Guess it is just a question of accelerated development - which is an advantage we have. Would Ballard, Jobe and Clark be getting regular games in a premier league squad at the moment?

So Batth will hopefully get games at Norwich to finish his career on a high but we will get some coin. And in the process open an opportunity for either a more progressive player like O Nein or a younger lad like Seelt to fill.

Sure on occasions we might think that we would not have conceded the sucker punch to Cardiff if Batth was on the pitch but we have to be prepared to take risks to give opportunities for development

 

[FulwellViaLeeds]

They haven't invested heavily though and we dont have five experienced centre backs- Seelt yes, Triantis was buttons. I can see the club wanting to put some faith into Seelt and given the clubs looking at him previously you can expect him to be one of four centre halves fighting for a start.

But he's played about 40 games over a couple of seasons for PSV reserves - coming to a country and the need for him being given time and protection to adapt shouldn't be underestimated.

As for Triantis he's a speculative punt having played about 25 senior games I Aus. Coming on from such a low level he'd likely be best going out on loan in January.

On paper we might have 4 centre backs, but the reality is we've seen last season how an injury or two can decimate what 'on paper' looks like. We have one senior centre back who is 24. Then a utility player who is there to aid our play from the back- the two others are both 20 in new countries and their senior experience is questionable.


Keeping Batth till January would have mitigated any injuries and given lads a chance to adapt.

We have invested heavily, at least for where we are as a club. We signed 4 or 5 players for a fee this summer, and two were centre backs. Between Ballard, Seelt, Triantis and even Alese, I'm not sure if we've spent more on any other position since we came back up.

We were never going to keep a player we don't really want on the books because we still can't trust one of our big summer signings to fill in when needed 4 months after signing. He should be ready to fill in as our first choice centre back off the bench by now.

 

[Dodgy]

Not sure there is so much difference between us - just a matter of degree

I think if the young lads show enough in training and have been scouted properly then we should not be surprised to see them start without league experience

Look at Amad - Man United bought him after he had played four senior games for 30m euros. It didn’t work so well for him at Rangers but within our structure he developed in a matter of months to one of the first names on the team sheet

Guess it is just a question of accelerated development - which is an advantage we have. Would Ballard, Jobe and Clark be getting regular games in a premier league squad at the moment?

So Batth will hopefully get games at Norwich to finish his career on a high but we will get some coin. And in the process open an opportunity for either a more progressive player like O Nein or a younger lad like Seelt to fill.

Sure on occasions we might think that we would not have conceded the sucker punch to Cardiff if Batth was on the pitch but we have to be prepared to take risks to give opportunities for development

Oh, I don't think we're very far apart at all. I think that Speakman and his scouting team are doing an astounding job.

Have I mentioned the short term, though?

 

[scott934]

If Ballard or O'Nien get injured, heaven forbid, we're relying on two players with 8 minutes of league experience between them.

I agree this will be an anxious moment when and if it does come, but how can these lads get league experience if we don't give them league experience? If Batth had stayed then Seelt and Triantis would never play.

 

[Dodgy]

I agree this will be an anxious moment when and if it does come, but how can these lads get league experience if we don't give them league experience? If Batth had stayed then Seelt and Triantis would never play.

We were 4-0 up against Southampton after about 50 minutes. What better time to bed them in? We didn't bring either on.
3-0 against a hapless Sheffield Wednesday after 30 minutes. Seelt got four minutes.
The time to bring these lads on isn't when we need them: it's when we're cruising.

 

[The Cabbage]

We were 4-0 up against Southampton after about 50 minutes. What better time to bed them in? We didn't bring either on.
3-0 against a hapless Sheffield Wednesday after 30 minutes. Seelt got four minutes.
The time to bring these lads on isn't when we need them: it's when we're cruising.

That's a fair challenge, but we've got lots of players competing for those sub minutes across different positions. We need to get minutes into Hemir, Rusyn, Auchiche, Ba, Rigg, Bennette and so on and so on. It's why I'm so keen on Mowbray using all 5 subs as often as humanly possible. He should probably push it a bit more than he does IMO. Certainly though, in dead rubber games he should probably be feeding in the centre halves more. It definitely makes sense to protect us - as he's unlikely to turn to them when he's trying to reinvigorate us in tight games.

 

[tony_not_in_london]

That's a fair challenge, but we've got lots of players competing for those sub minutes across different positions. We need to get minutes into Hemir, Rusyn, Auchiche, Ba, Rigg, Bennette and so on and so on. It's why I'm so keen on Mowbray using all 5 subs as often as humanly possible. He should probably push it a bit more than he does IMO. Certainly though, in dead rubber games he should probably be feeding in the centre halves more. It definitely makes sense to protect us - as he's unlikely to turn to them when he's trying to reinvigorate us in tight games.

They’ll get their chance soon enough when one of the refs fails to see the funny side of Luke O Nein’s shithousery and he gets sent off or when Ballard goes steaming in for one of his 100% challenges and breaks something

But you can see why the manager does not want to randomly disrupt a defence that has less than ten games playing together?

 

[Dodgy]

That's a fair challenge, but we've got lots of players competing for those sub minutes across different positions. We need to get minutes into Hemir, Rusyn, Auchiche, Ba, Rigg, Bennette and so on and so on. It's why I'm so keen on Mowbray using all 5 subs as often as humanly possible. He should probably push it a bit more than he does IMO. Certainly though, in dead rubber games he should probably be feeding in the centre halves more. It definitely makes sense to protect us - as he's unlikely to turn to them when he's trying to reinvigorate us in tight games.

My point exactly. Get them on and get minutes in their legs when there's not too much pressure on them. 5 subs make an enormous difference and when you're three or four up and cruising...

 

[rapscallion]

He absolutely 100% is. O’Nien is miles ahead of Batth for pass volume, completion percentage, progressive passes, progressive carries, take-ons and shot creating actions. It’s fair to say that Batth didn’t hurt us on the ball for his presence last season - and it’s certainly fair to wonder if that stuff is important to winning - but to claim that Batth is Onien’s equal on the ball is demonstrably nonsense. And for good or ill, the club are prioritising these sorts of things from the defence this season.

85%

83%

Not miles ahead in that one.

 

[The Cabbage]

They’ll get their chance soon enough when one of the refs fails to see the funny side of Luke O Nein’s shithousery and he gets sent off or when Ballard goes steaming in for one of his 100% challenges and breaks something

But you can see why the manager does not want to randomly disrupt a defence that has less than ten games playing together?

I can in run-of-the-mill games. To Dodgy's point, though, the Southampton and SWFC games represented something different. With hindsight, Mowbray probably should have taken the opportunity to get more minutes into Seelt.

85%

83%

Not miles ahead in that one.

That's enough to go from 54th to 72nd percentile, when compared against peers, though. That's a pretty significant jump

 

[rapscallion]

That's enough to go from 54th to 72nd percentile, when compared against peers, though. That's a pretty significant jump

You did say percentage, Cabb.

I did quote percentage back to you.

 

[scott934]

We were 4-0 up against Southampton after about 50 minutes. What better time to bed them in? We didn't bring either on.
3-0 against a hapless Sheffield Wednesday after 30 minutes. Seelt got four minutes.
The time to bring these lads on isn't when we need them: it's when we're cruising.

I agree with that as well.

Although we have signed them to play them, it's why we're attractive to young players, so if the need comes, they will play.