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Botham, Flintoff, Stokes.


chunkyshitehawk53 said:
“much“ is pushing it.

botham 14 test tons in 102
stokes 12 in 92

botham had that West Indian attack to face as well.

stokes may be better, but it’s not by much
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You can’t just reference one attack like. India and NZ have had by far their best attacks by an absolute mile in stokes era.

The overall standard of bowling has been much higher in recent times, your average bowler is statistically quicker
 
MustardAndOnions said:
Stokes when he retires his stats won’t stand out if you just go on average, but he’s won more games for England than anyone. I’ve never seen a more selfless cricketer than Ben stokes, at any level
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This. All day, every day. Botham and Flintoff were hugely entertaining cricketers, but Stokes has it all.
 
MustardAndOnions said:
Flintoff was a brilliant bowler like, you can’t just go off stats like. He never got the new ball, always the old one, always bowled the donkey overs. 90mph bowler who got wickets when it was flat flat

Stokes is similar in that regard, if he’d been given new ball he’d have taken shed loads aw he’s a good swing bowler

Stokes when he retires his stats won’t stand out if you just go on average, but he’s won more games for England than anyone. I’ve never seen a more selfless cricketer than Ben stokes, at any level
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Exactly cricket is about winning games and grasping the moment Stokes and Botham did that whatever averages may or may not say
 
I think Botham is the only one of the three that genuinely fulfilled his potential.

All three absolute masters at stepping up and being hugely influential figures. Match winners all.
 
chunkyshitehawk53 said:
Really? Stokes has absolutely fulfilled his potential. Not sure what else he really has to do!
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I think he’s an absolutely magnificent talent and could have scored a lot more runs and tons than he has and been a really dominant batsman of his era given his ability. Technique, power, finesse, he’s got the lot.

What he’s achieved is unquestionable though and he’s dragged England over the line on the biggest stages.
 
Sea to Shining Sea said:
I think he’s an absolutely magnificent talent and could have scored a lot more runs and tons than he has and been a really dominant batsman of his era given his ability. Technique, power, finesse, he’s got the lot.

What he’s achieved is unquestionable though and he’s dragged England over the line on the biggest stages.
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Interesting perspective. Technically he’s good yeah, but he’s never struck me as truly top batsman (in terms of consistent weight of runs)

He’s more of an all round talent that changes games
 
chunkyshitehawk53 said:
Interesting perspective. Technically he’s good yeah, but he’s never struck me as truly top batsman (in terms of consistent weight of runs)

He’s more of an all round talent that changes games
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I think that’s what I mean by he hasn’t fulfilled potential. Probably not the best way to describe it because of what he has achieved but his individual stats don’t match his ability (with bat or ball). I think Flintoff was similar. Another game changing player
 
The Breen Machine said:
Won't be a popular view but I am of the view that Flintoff shouldn't even be in the discussion.
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I remember when Derek Pringle and Phil DeFreitas were being heralded as the next Ian Botham.

Botham in his pomp was fantastic but flogged himself into the ground with ever diminishing returns, it was great when the old magic occasionally returned - the joint replacement and adverts for owt that might relieve pain are no surprise.

Botham's bowling stats are in a different league altogether.

Stokes is consistent and has much more going for him as a captain.

They have both had the experience of everything relying on them.

Flintoff burned brightly and quickly. Not in the same class as Botham or Stokes.
 
Sea to Shining Sea said:
I think that’s what I mean by he hasn’t fulfilled potential. Probably not the best way to describe it because of what he has achieved but his individual stats don’t match his ability (with bat or ball). I think Flintoff was similar. Another game changing player
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I guess there are very very few allrounders that truly deliver as batsmen in the long term. Kallis and Sobers probably the only 2
 
seaham ftm said:
If you had to pick only one for an XI it would have to be Stokes imo. I don’t think you can accurately compare eras at all though. Mediocre footballers today would be world beaters 20 years ago.
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I do agree with some of your post. The standard of international cricket has massively improved in the last 30 or even 20 years. The stronger international sides have more depth, emerging sides have world class performers and innovation in bowling / batting is on a different level. I look at some of the Test bowling attacks in the 1980s and they are not all that.
 
Exapno Mapcase said:
I remember when Derek Pringle and Phil DeFreitas were being heralded as the next Ian Botham.

Botham in his pomp was fantastic but flogged himself into the ground with ever diminishing returns, it was great when the old magic occasionally returned - the joint replacement and adverts for owt that might relieve pain are no surprise.

Botham's bowling stats are in a different league altogether.

Stokes is consistent and has much more going for him as a captain.

They have both had the experience of everything relying on them.

Flintoff burned brightly and quickly. Not in the same class as Botham or Stokes.
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Add the late David Capel to that list of the next Ian Botham
 
I often thought measuring how great a player was, rested with averages at the end of their career. But the last 12 months we have seen how ‘aggressive intent’ can be another factor in greatness.
 
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