Lee Mason - VAR

[ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK]

He was MackemX. Cracking poster (in the main ).

Aye needed a break as spent too much time on here during COVID, though I didn't mind hoying up the daily info or other stuff about it to keep people informed but I was wasting too much time on here even after the main kerfuffle had died down.

I stupidly asked to close my account rather than just have a break. Most sussed me with my slow-mo gifs that soon appeared a few months later along with the long tedious posts such as the ones on that other thread

 

[redandwhiterob]

Nice way to avoid the issue of you claiming it's the fans fault

Also, if a VAR ref is incapable of drawing lines on a screen for offside, then yes, he's useless.

Are you a bit dim? I'm saying its the culture of the fans is way we are in this situation here. Any other sport mistakes are accepted apart from football. The attitude of most of the fans is all wrong

 

[Chewit]

I would put a canny whack on, if they were to get rid of VAR for a month, the howls of complaint, over the certainty of dodgy happenings would be massive

i can hear it now, the first offside goal being given

Thing is I used to think linesmen did an incredible job in EPL with offsides, it felt like there was less contentious decisions than now.
Frankly who wants to see a goal cancelled out if a player is offside by his big toe... the point is did he have an advantage and I think linesmen got that pretty much correct

 

[Gaius Octavius]

The system isnt the problem, its the people operating it.

 

[Fetch Fletch]

The system isnt the problem, its the people operating it.

Is the truth.

It will alway be the people. Everyone, whether they know it or not, has an agenda. Sees things their way.

Bring in Jonny Five imo.

 

[ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK]

Thing is I used to think linesmen did an incredible job in EPL with offsides, it felt like there was less contentious decisions than now.
Frankly who wants to see a goal cancelled out if a player is offside by his big toe... the point is did he have an advantage and I think linesmen got that pretty much correct

There wasn't less contention and it just feels that way as we see many more slow-mo HD close decisions. In the past you didn't have as many live matches on TV, nor the tech to show it as clearly or to watch it on given HD hasn't been around forever. Offside is not always about drawing lines as there are also occasions where the ball hasn't even touched an opposing player or vice versa yet an incorrect decision was made as a linesman missed it, whereas VAR sees it without the need for lines.

The margin of error has also improved as before it could be as close as a big toe or further away such as a couple of feet, even yards as we've all seen on TV replays in the past. That's why it came about as mistakes weren't just close, they were often shocking. Even though VAR is making mistakes and some shocking, it's not to the level pre VAR when anything goes.

The other problem with VAR is the "clear and obvious" rule which makes it look like it's making more errors. They did this to appease the fans thinking they would be happy that decisions are still going the way of the onfield officials. The problem with that is that when decisions that 90% of the time would be changed aren't as the ref decided to be in the 10% but it's not classed as clear and obvious. Get rid of clear and obvious and just over rule the ref using the rules.

Like you I don't want to see a goal cancelled due to an offside of a big toe. I would like to see an offside given where there is no doubt at all, so that could mean the freeze frame shows he's offside but due to the tech they can't prove it offside. That's why the margin of error would work so that when an offside is called it is because they're 100% sure and not because the line is a pixel either side on an image that isn't the exact moment in time the ball is touched.

 

[Fetch Fletch]

There wasn't less contention and it just feels that way as we see many more slow-mo HD close decisions. In the past you didn't have as many live matches on TV, nor the tech to show it as clearly or to watch it on given HD hasn't been around forever. Offside is not always about drawing lines as there are also occasions where the ball hasn't even touched an opposing player or vice versa yet an incorrect decision was made as a linesman missed it, whereas VAR sees it without the need for lines.

The margin of error has also improved as before it could be as close as a big toe or further away such as a couple of feet, even yards as we've all seen on TV replays in the past. That's why it came about as mistakes weren't just close, they were often shocking. Even though VAR is making mistakes and some shocking, it's not to the level pre VAR when anything goes.

Like you I don't want to see a goal cancelled due to an offside of a big toe. I would like to see an offside given where there is no doubt at all, so that could mean the freeze frame shows he's offside but due to the tech they can't prove it offside. That's why the margin of error would work so that when an offside is called it is because they're 100% sure and not because the line is a pixel either side on an image that isn't the exact moment in time the ball is touched.

Are you asking for something that can be done though? And if so, who’s decided it shouldn’t be?

 

[BIG MAL]

Just scrap the effing thing. If you can't have it at lower divisions, you can't have it.... we are not playing 2 different sports. If you can't put pixels on when the ball leaves the foot, how the bloody hell can you be so picky when the player is deemed offside... it's like just using a camera at the end of a 100 metre race and not the start. . And as for punishing the centre forward for having size 13 feet against the centre half who only has size 11 seems height discrimination and should be banned.

 

[123SunTan]

Channeling @Space Hopper

Hence the expression:
You have to draw the line somewhere.

 

[Turnip from the Tip]

Always said that there’s no need for lines. Give them 5 or 10 seconds to look with the naked eye and make a call. If it takes longer and the need for lines to be drawn then it obviously too tight and the benefit of the doubt should go to the attacking team.

What was wrong with the idea of ‘daylight’ between attacker and last defender? Don’t need a line for that. If there’s a clear gap, you’re off.

 

[AC Mack]

So it's football fans fault that officials and the authorities are useless? Righto

Is it the ref's fault when a player gives him verbal abuse?

 

[ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK]

Are you asking for something that can be done though? And if so, who’s decided it shouldn’t be?

Yes it can be done and quite easily from what I've seen of the tech as I understand how it works. I'll try and explain in shorter version than I would and this is a video showing the semi automated offside tech in action that was used in the World Cup, Champions League and now Serie A and will be coming to the PL in one form or another soon. It's basically like freeze frame on FIFA and being able to change the camera view 360 degrees.

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The tech basically makes all players stick men and has numerous body points that include all potential offside points. They have a chip in the ball that refreshes 500 times to know when a ball is 1st touched (this is the rule, not when it leaves the foot). That solves the when did the ball get touched concern but the problem is the video frame rate of the 12 cameras which is 50FPS.

Players can still move some distance during that time of 0.02 seconds between frames. Two players in total can move somewhere up to 30cm between them from 1 frame to another if running at full pelt of 34km/h opposite each other. That's rare so most would be anywhere from 1mm for standing still players to say 20cm difference between frames. The automated stuff should be able to calculate the player speed (or point) by comparing points from previous and following frames (not just 1 frame. If it's a combined opposite speed of say 17 km/h then it would know the margin of error is only 15cm etc so hoy a 20cm band on to eliminate all doubt.

They still draw the official offside line but then add the margin of error band so that would mean this below would be onside. No decision could ever be given offside where in fact the player was onside if they allowed this margin. This means goals not being disallowed and fans questioning if the player was actually onside as that doubt is covered already. Aye a player might have been slightly offside but that's better than it being contentiously ruled out as at the end of the day goal celebrations are what we enjoy the most as fans. Apologies as I tried to keep is short but failed!

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[redandwhiterob]

What was wrong with the idea of ‘daylight’ between attacker and last defender? Don’t need a line for that. If there’s a clear gap, you’re off.

Aren't you just shifting the point of controversy there though? We'll only see arguments about if there's clear daylight or not?

 

[SOLid]

Aren't you just shifting the point of controversy there though? We'll only see arguments about if there's clear daylight or not?

Yep - that's the problem with any rule change that merely widens the unit of measurement for offside.
I don't know the answer TBH.

 

[ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK]

Aren't you just shifting the point of controversy there though? We'll only see arguments about if there's clear daylight or not?

Yes it does as there is still that error of margin of the frame rate as explained in my last post. It's impossible to get it correct to the mm, even cm in my opinion even if they had 100FPS video or faster.

We all need to accept they can't call it perfectly every time but it's pointless going back to the human method. That's why I'm suggesting they shift it but in favour of the attacker so all the error of margin has gone from the attacker. That means no more goals belatedly ruled out by a debatable offside pissing of fans who've gone mental after a goal only to have it taken away. It's far easier to accept the attacker may have been offside as a defending team fan as you're pissed off anyway.

Aye it's gone the other way in our favour but these days it's all about money and not the match day fans. This is why I'd prefer the lesser of 2 evils and have no debatable onside goals spoiling the emotion of a goal by it coming crashing down and some debatable offside goals making me slightly more pissed off.

Some say "get rid of it all together" but do people really want to go back to the days where a lino flags instantly to kill celebrations only to get home and see on TV that a player was clearly or sometimes yards onside and get pissed off even more? Or the very little known fact that a lino would stop play before a goal is even allowed to be scored? I'll use Chris Rigg's FA Cup goal as an example as Ba would have been flagged straight away before he pulled it back to Rigg to smash it in. I know Ba was offside but imagine if Ba was actually onside and the lino flagged incorrectly stopping play, we'd have never seen Rigg's goal in the first place! It makes you wonder how many attacking moves have been stopped pre VAR then could have resulted in goals! That's why that rule about letting the attack continue is in place now to stop this happening again.

Fans aren't as forgiving when they see it at the match or on TV that shows a slow mo and freeze frame that makes deciding much easier. I'm no ref or linesman but I can appreciate how hard it is to run the line or ref a game as it's impossible to see everything, hence why we have VAR. As fans, we don't allow them to make mistakes but it's also the money now involved that mistakes made on the pitch shouldn't be left and that the majority are corrected and this is why we have VAR and it's not going away.

Try this and grab a pen and paper and play the 1st video on a big TV (rather than phone) and watch the 25 clips. Write down your answers and then watch the answers after. I can guarantee you won't get 25 out of 25 and you will feel you're guessing quite often as to what you thought you saw. The 2nd video has some dodgy freeze frames but it gives the answer afterwards and again some will have you in disbelief at the ones frozen correctly. Bear in mind this is a basic offside in the comfort of your home and not live with loads of players running everywhere while you're trying to keep a straight line of vision and also trying to see when the precise moment the ball is played!

“Crisis” VAR meetings

whatever happened to the linesmen behind the goal-line ? Seem to remember the last time I saw this a Portuguese keeper was running off his line during a penalty and nowt was done :lol:

www.readytogo.net

 

[Turnip from the Tip]

Aren't you just shifting the point of controversy there though? We'll only see arguments about if there's clear daylight or not?

In which case benefit goes to the attacker

 

[redandwhiterob]

In which case benefit goes to the attacker

Yeah but at what distance do you decide the benefit goes to the attacker?

 

[BIG MAL]

Is it the ref's fault when a player gives him verbal abuse?

Sadly sometimes yes. It's a passionate game and if you remove the emotions you may as well stop.

 

[ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK]

Yeah but at what distance do you decide the benefit goes to the attacker?

Did you not read my simple proposed solution?

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[The Scarlet Standard]

Yeah but at what distance do you decide the benefit goes to the attacker?

2cm? Dunno but I won't be in the decision making room, it's fairly arbitrary. It just builds in a margin of error because at the minute they can't get the exact moment the ball is kicked, nor the line at exactly the furthest forward point of the body that can legally be used to score a goal.

Fans should demand a margin of error on technology that cannot be precise, like in cricket where marginal calls are referred back to the original umpire's call. Then it's up to the higher ups to decide on a reasonable margin of error - I think the Dutch use a 5cm margin of error, we can study if that is reasonable or not based on the last 2 seasons of it being used in the eredvise.