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Russia invading Ukraine (NEWS/UPDATES)

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Going back a few pages on the thread, on the subject of turning away from fossil fuels, I just read this, which highlights it might not be so easy to transition when oil prices get this high. Frustrating that our economies are so utterly entwined in hydrocarbons:

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Apologies if this is a diversion from the thread, but some may be interested and it is sort of relevant.
 
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UpTheDuff said:
Why should we let him save face? His face should be ground into the ground, or have bullets in it.
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Those sentences don't contradict. The former is the advisable course because there is no viable path to the latter, and it's one of the more expeditious ways of stopping what's going on.

Put bluntly: the West is not willing to stop Putin taking over Ukraine. They are only willing to make it very painful and embarrassing for him to do so. Sparing him that pain and embarrassment in exchange for a better outcome for Ukraine is about the best that can be negotiated.
 
bahtat said:
Not one for sticking up for Germany but when 50% of your gas comes from Russia it’s a bit difficult to change to another supplier or type of fuel overnight

the question that needs asking is why they put so many eggs in the same basket
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I think the result of WW2 and Russian control had a lot to do with it. I accept they’ve have time to change, but with the benefit of hindsight…
 
Some random Ukrainian farmer is now going to have a 25 million dollar anti air system sitting in his barn…

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bahtat said:
Translates as “do as we say or we’ll flatten you”
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It does exactly that but they probably will so the question is do you salvage what you can of Ukraine. The West wouldn't have to ease sanctions on Russia, the ICC can still pursue him for war crimes but an absolute humanitarian disaster can be averted. Its a shit deal ultimately as it was on offer before the conflict but maybe the alternative is worse.
 
Lord Alfred said:
It does exactly that but they probably will so the question is do you salvage what you can of Ukraine. The West wouldn't have to ease sanctions on Russia, the ICC can still pursue him for war crimes but an absolute humanitarian disaster can be averted. Its a shit deal ultimately as it was on offer before the conflict but maybe the alternative is worse.
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Alternatives are much worse.


They have lost Crimea and the east before all this started.
 
Harry Angstrom said:
Hopefully they have but I'm not holding my breath. We don't fund the war machine in the same was=y as Germany and rest of EU> No idea why they are sanctioning Russia but still import the gas.
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There are ways round an embargo, US didn’t import Libyan Crude, Italians refined it and US imported products, made in Italy, gas and oil can be transhipped at sea and new B/L issued, no longer Russian, easy peasy.
 
Kevj said:
I think the result of WW2 and Russian control had a lot to do with it. I accept they’ve have time to change, but with the benefit of hindsight…
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They went off coal and nuclear hoping to use gas to transition to renewables. One problem with going to net zero is no one seems to have done risk analysis. Here we should have kept some old stations on standby, in Germany the nuclear stations at least should have been mothballed not decommissioned. It has been too political to do sensibly
 
Gillythedilf said:
The Ukraine govt should agree to that as they will end up with nowt and stop this bloodshed.
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Agreeing to the first thing your opposite number puts on the table isn't how to negotiate.

I accept that they aren't in a position of strength here but the Russians clearly aren't having this all their own way and sanctions will start to cut deep. And their military losses will continue to ramp up if they keep this going.

So at the very least a counter-offer should include things mentioned elsewhere like an independently verified referendum in those breakaway regions with Russian acceptance of the outcome, acceptance that Ukraine is independent but free to arm itself as it chooses, and assurances that neutrality will be respected (triggering other outcomes if not). However no country should be forced by another to amend its constitution for ever more - it flies totally in the face of how democracy works.
 
Gillythedilf said:
Alternatives are much worse.


They have lost Crimea and the east before all this started.
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I honestly think it will spread further than Ukraine if left to unfold as it currently is. Africa is lining up behind Russia and lots of countries are walking an absolute tightrope with commodity prices elevated the way they are. The price of wheat is more now than it was during the food riots in Algeria a decade ago and only going in one direction. We see price inflation affecting our disposable income, to some parts of the world it's having the absolute basics of life or not.
 
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