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Russia invading Ukraine (NEWS/UPDATES)

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r@mside said:
It is ok. Russia was legally entitled to make those drills, gave notice of its plans and cancelled them when asked by the Irish government. Another fuss about nothing.

That's a daft question in the circumstances. No government is saying it can't

This about far more than Ukraine. If it were so simple, Ukraine could sign off the Minsk II agreement and try to get on with building a democracy when it might get back on track with aim of joining the EU.
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Not sure about the validity of many of your answers but of course it is legal for Russia to engage in drills but it is also legal for us to drop sensors into the sea and monitor their activity. Not sure it was the Irish government that caused their withdrawal. Why were they doing it there in the first place?

If it's a daft question then we can expect no Russian invasion and attempt at regime change.

If it is about more than Ukraine then why are the Russians using them as a pawn in their own game. Don't tell me the Russian military build up is for defensive reasons.

There could be tens of thousands of deaths of people in their own country because Putin is paranoid about a non existent NATO threat and yet all you can do is defend him so I suppose you consider those deaths if they happen to be justified? On the other hand he would like to establish a land corridor to Crimea.

He's ex KGB and friend of the Stasi. He's a murderous thug. End of.
I missed this gem:

People are making a big thing about a Russian-China alliance, it's true they have finally resolved their territorial dispute but it remains a tenuous relationship. Listen to specialists on both countries and they'll explain their relationship is a fragile balance of self interest. What's bringing them together is the demand for gas as China tries to achieve its climate change goals. In the longer term China will need access to the Northern Sea route and some of China's previous naval exercises have been causing concern in Russia so joint exercise can be seen as a gesture of goodwill between the two rather than a joint defence against the West.
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So they hold combined military drills.....off the coast of Japan? As a gesture of goodwill to each other :D

What does naval warship manoeuvres have to do with civil naval passage through the Northern Sea route?
So the Chinese are looking to meet climate change goals by exploring for a fossil fuel?
 
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Mercia Blackcat said:
Not sure about the validity of many of your answers but of course it is legal for Russia to engage in drills but it is also legal for us to drop sensors into the sea and monitor their activity. Not sure it was the Irish government that caused their withdrawal. Why were they doing it there in the first place?

If it's a daft question then we can expect no Russian invasion and attempt at regime change.

If it is about more than Ukraine then why are the Russians using them as a pawn in their own game. Don't tell me the Russian military build up is for defensive reasons.

There could be tens of thousands of deaths of people in their own country because Putin is paranoid about a non existent NATO threat and yet all you can do is defend him so I suppose you consider those deaths if they happen to be justified? On the other hand he would like to establish a land corridor to Crimea.

He's ex KGB and friend of the Stasi. He's a murderous thug. End of.
I missed this gem:


So they hold combined military drills.....off the coast of Japan? As a gesture of goodwill to each other :D

What does naval warship manoeuvres have to do with civil naval passage through the Northern Sea route?
So the Chinese are looking to meet climate change goals by exploring for a fossil fuel?
Click to expand...

Mentioning China's need to access the Northern Sea route does not equate to me saying they are exploring for fossil fuels. There are new trade routes opening up in the Arctic circle and it's likely to become a new arena of competition/hostilities and territorial disputes. Enough though, because it has nothing to do with the Ukraine situation much like the most of your other points.
 
r@mside said:
Mentioning China's need to access the Northern Sea route does not equate to me saying they are exploring for fossil fuels. There are new trade routes opening up in the Arctic circle and it's likely to become a new arena of competition/hostilities and territorial disputes. Enough though, because it has nothing to do with the Ukraine situation much like the most of your other points.
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It's all part of the current context. Well the need for gas that you mentioned is a fossil fuel. I do not believe that is the reason for their joint military drills off the coast of Japan. It is not as if the Chinese respect international waters which is why they have claimed the entire South China sea as their territorial waters even though the sea extends as far as Vietnam and the Philippines. They then make complaint if a foreign warship sails through the international waters involved as if they actually expect people to respect their ridiculous claim.

This is the 21st Century and war is asymmetrical rather than a series of events that are superficially connected. The entire context needs to be considered which is why my points are valid. This is a part of a global conflict and we have to look outside our own back yard in Ukraine. Russia does not have the right to invade a country causing the deaths of tens of thousands of people just because it doesn't like the policies of that nation which has done nothing to harm them.

However, to claim the Chinese-Russian manoeuvres off the coast of Japan were simply a gesture of goodwill between the two countries because China may in the future need to access the Northern Sea passage is ludicrous and only worthy of something written in Pravda during the old days of the Soviet Union. It has no credibility.
This about far more than Ukraine. If it were so simple, Ukraine could sign off the Minsk II agreement and try to get on with building a democracy when it might get back on track with aim of joining the EU.
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So sign off the Minsk II agreement which gives Russia influence over the Luhansk and Donetsk regions which would be given some devolved powers and only then allowed to reunite with the rest of the Ukraine. So they two Russian aligned regions could act as a significant influence on how a united Ukraine developed in the future economically and politically. How does that respect the sovereignty of an independent Ukraine that could be manipulated internally by Russia. Yet, you say in regard of the right of Ukraine to continue as a sovereign state:

That's a daft question in the circumstances. No government is saying it can't
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Hardly an independent sovereign state when two internal regions are directly controlled by Russia.
A bit like us wanting to leave the EU but Wales and Scotland remain under the control of the EU yet have elected members of the UK parliament.
And we think the NI Ireland Protocol is problematic. We would never accept that yet we think we can impose it on Ukraine. Hardly surprising they are reluctant to sign.
 
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Mercia Blackcat said:
It's all part of the current context. Well the need for gas that you mentioned is a fossil fuel. I do not believe that is the reason for their joint military drills off the coast of Japan. It is not as if the Chinese respect international waters which is why they have claimed the entire South China sea as their territorial waters even though the sea extends as far as Vietnam and the Philippines. They then make complaint if a foreign warship sails through the international waters involved as if they actually expect people to respect their ridiculous claim.

This is the 21st Century and war is asymmetrical rather than a series of events that are superficially connected. The entire context needs to be considered which is why my points are valid. This is a part of a global conflict and we have to look outside our own back yard in Ukraine. Russia does not have the right to invade a country causing the deaths of tens of thousands of people just because it doesn't like the policies of that nation which has done nothing to harm them.

However, to claim the Chinese-Russian manoeuvres off the coast of Japan were simply a gesture of goodwill between the two countries because China may in the future need to access the Northern Sea passage is ludicrous and only worthy of something written in Pravda during the old days of the Soviet Union. It has no credibility.
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I think this post at least attempts to take a broader geopolitical view, so credit for that.

What make your points invalid is trying to make standard international practice something sinister when one state does it and totalling avoiding the fact the US does exactly the thing you suggested would not be tolerated by Russia.

You're also offering these things as evidence of Russian malevolence in Ukraine. What we regularly see with competing major powers are clashes of conflict, espionage and intelligence gathering in some arenas while co-operating on issues that are mutually beneficial. This happens with US-Russia relations, US-China relations and China-Russia relations, it's happening right now.

When you refer to a Russian invasion of Ukraine, I assume you mean Crimea. There's nothing much to dispute, Russia violated international law and is paying the price through sanctions and the EU pulling back from their strategic partnership. If the return of Crimea to Ukraine is a central and uncompromisable position in the negotiations then this could well end badly. I don't know if it's telling or not, but there's not a great deal being made of it considering. Most of the hysteria is about the whole thing being a Russian ruse to take Ukraine and beyond.

Regards your last paragraph, that's just childish. Read what I posted again, I suggested you listen to experts on Russia and China and was obviously referring to views picked up from what I've read or heard. I wouldn't want to swear on it but I think the nature of the naval exercise came from an interview between someone from The Spectator and a researcher at the Carnegie Moscow Centre, hardly Pravda or Sputnik propaganda.
 
r@mside said:
Does she mention who vetted Putin and approved his position as Yeltsin's stand after the rigged election?

On the subject of UK money laundering and in no way condoning it, I'd love to know what our GDP would look like without it. It was happening long before Russian gangsters and ex-KGB officials got their grubby hands on state wealth.
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Sergei Pugachev ,who she describes “master of the Byzantine financing schemes of Yeltin’s Kremlin,and then became known as Putin’s banker too .He straddled the worlds of the Family and the siloviki”The Family ,coterie of relatives ,officials and businessmen surrounding Yeltsin .Siloviki ,
Putin’s inner circle .
Pugachev thought he could control Putin .
He was another one who underestimated Putin.
 
Hendonbeach said:
Sergei Pugachev ,who she describes “master of the Byzantine financing schemes of Yeltin’s Kremlin,and then became known as Putin’s banker too .He straddled the worlds of the Family and the siloviki”The Family ,coterie of relatives ,officials and businessmen surrounding Yeltsin .Siloviki ,
Putin’s inner circle .
Pugachev thought he could control Putin .
He was another one who underestimated Putin.
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I meant the CIA vetting and Bill Clinton telling Yeltsin it was ok to appoint Putin as he was one of the good guys. The alternatives must have been dire.
 
woodlebert said:
Stinger missiles
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Loads have man. It's genuinely fascinating how this might play out & I pray for no hot war.

It would be a very Russian thing to do to be deploying 100000 troops there but the real set piece being somewhere else.
Honestly wouldn't surprise me if this was some sort of global market manipulation.
 
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Currently flying over Ukraine. I’m surprised these things show up on flightradar mind :eek:

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