Test batting lineup going forward

[The Breen Machine]

I've always been quite supportive of Burns but he needs some quite substantial technical work and I think at 31, it's just too late in a career to do that and return to test cricket afterwards.

The problem is finding a replacement. I understand the argument of only replacing someone with someone better, but there comes a time for boldness and brave decision making and when no one in the side bar Root is averaging over 30 in a whole calendar year, now is that time.

It's a reset moment for English test cricket for me. There are so many things that need to be looked at within the structure and prioritisation of the red ball game in this country and I don't want to go into those on this thread. The likes of Pope and Crawley have been promoted too young and need to go back and refine their games. We should probably be looking at a consistent county opener with a decent technique to get us through the next couple of years whilst we nurture the younger talent. It did Australia no harm picking Chris Rogers when they were in a transitional period although tbh I don't think there is anyone in county cricket as good as him. That said, and I've said this multiple times for a number of years, county averages don't count for a lot in test cricket. It's when and how you score your runs, and whether you have the temperament to step up and continuously improve/perform.

County averages will tell you that Hick and Ramprakash were better players than Vaughan and Trescothick. It's time for our coach and selectors to earn their coin as Fletcher did when identifying talent.

 

[rentaghost]

I've always been quite supportive of Burns but he needs some quite substantial technical work and I think at 31, it's just too late in a career to do that and return to test cricket afterwards.

The problem is finding a replacement. I understand the argument of only replacing someone with someone better, but there comes a time for boldness and brave decision making and when no one in the side bar Root is averaging over 30 in a whole calendar year, now is that time.

It's a reset moment for English test cricket for me. There are so many things that need to be looked at within the structure and prioritisation of the red ball game in this country and I don't want to go into those on this thread. The likes of Pope and Crawley have been promoted too young and need to go back and refine their games. We should probably be looking at a consistent county opener with a decent technique to get us through the next couple of years whilst we nurture the younger talent. It did Australia no harm picking Chris Rogers when they were in a transitional period although tbh I don't think there is anyone in county cricket as good as him. That said, and I've said this multiple times for a number of years, county averages don't count for a lot in test cricket. It's when and how you score your runs, and whether you have the temperament to step up and continuously improve/perform.

County averages will tell you that Hick and Ramprakash were better players than Vaughan and Trescothick. It's time for our coach and selectors to earn their coin as Fletcher did when identifying talent.

It's fair enough but that's exactly what we did do with Stoneman, Robson, Jennings, Lyth etc. The problem is test cricket at the highest level exposes flaws players didn't know they had or at least got away with because the bowling isn't as relentless. Robson planting his front foot, Stoneman short ball and weakness against quality spin, Jennings nicking off every time. Hameed was picked because he was the consistent opener in county cricket last year yet technical flaws are getting exposed. I agree we have to do something - Lees and Libby are probably the next two untried openers that have lets hope they can make the step up if they get the chance.

 

[The Breen Machine]

It's fair enough but that's exactly what we did do with Stoneman, Robson, Jennings, Lyth etc. The problem is test cricket at the highest level exposes flaws players didn't know they had or at least got away with because the bowling isn't as relentless. Robson planting his front foot, Stoneman short ball and weakness against quality spin, Jennings nicking off every time. Hameed was picked because he was the consistent opener in county cricket last year yet technical flaws are getting exposed. I agree we have to do something - Lees and Libby are probably the next two untried openers that have lets hope they can make the step up if they get the chance.

Agree with what you are saying, there is no magic fix. I would raise 2 points in addition.

1. You could argue that Lyth and Robson in particular were jettisoned very quickly at a relatively early age, and never revisited.
2. Trescothick had a technical flaw in a lack of foot movement and really struggled against Gillespie in particular in his first 2 Ashes series. Strauss went through a period in 2007 were he couldn't buy a run and was dropped, and had a slight flaw with his head position at times. Vaughan was James Vince for the first 2 years of his career in that he'd score a lovely 20 and then get out. Good coaching and a strong temperament saw each come back stronger. Why does it seem that all of our recent test batsmen either don't come back or when they do, there's little to no difference in their play? The coaching staff needs questioning IMO - they aren't improving players.

Disclaimer - It is more difficult to work on individual flaws during such a stupidly crammed international calendar.

 

[rentaghost]

Agree with what you are saying, there is no magic fix. I would raise 2 points in addition.

1. You could argue that Lyth and Robson in particular were jettisoned very quickly at a relatively early age, and never revisited.
2. Trescothick had a technical flaw in a lack of foot movement and really struggled against Gillespie in particular in his first 2 Ashes series. Strauss went through a period in 2007 were he couldn't buy a run and was dropped, and had a slight flaw with his head position at times. Vaughan was James Vince for the first 2 years of his career in that he'd score a lovely 20 and then get out. Good coaching and a strong temperament saw each come back stronger. Why does it seem that all of our recent test batsmen either don't come back or when they do, there's little to no difference in their play? The coaching staff needs questioning IMO - they aren't improving players.

Disclaimer - It is more difficult to work on individual flaws during such a stupidly crammed international calendar.

Good points on the temperament of Trescothick, Vaughan and Strauss overcoming technical or mental flaws.
One of the problems with the likes of Robson, Lyth, Stoneman was the went into test cricket looking fantastic, having great recent records behind them eventually had flaws exposed at the highest level and were dropped. It was hard to persevere with them longer because at the time they were dropped they just didn't look like getting a run and their confidence was shot. All 3 of them went back to county cricket and fell off a cliff and couldn't get runs in county cricket. Had they been able to perform as they had done previously they would almost certainly have got their chance again given the failure of others. Robson might still after having his best season last year in about 4 or 5 years.

 

[The Breen Machine]

Good points on the temperament of Trescothick, Vaughan and Strauss overcoming technical or mental flaws.
One of the problems with the likes of Robson, Lyth, Stoneman was the went into test cricket looking fantastic, having great recent records behind them eventually had flaws exposed at the highest level and were dropped. It was hard to persevere with them longer because at the time they were dropped they just didn't look like getting a run and their confidence was shot. All 3 of them went back to county cricket and fell off a cliff and couldn't get runs in county cricket. Had they been able to perform as they had done previously they would almost certainly have got their chance again given the failure of others. Robson might still after having his best season last year in about 4 or 5 years.

Fair points again, Lyth has always been relatively consistent but neither were banging the door down. That said, who does these days? Gone are the days of a batsman scoring 1500 runs a season or averaging 60+

 

[JackL]

Bottom line is Burns has had enough chances and doesn’t look convincing enough, often enough. We can’t rely on him consistently to get us off to the starts we need but more than that, his beard ponytail combination is one of the most tragic things I’ve ever witnessed on a cricket field and for that reason alone he should never play for us again.

This

 

[The Rat]

Sibley is a better opening bat than burns by the way

His average only ended up less because he played all 7 tests in Asia

Burns played 1 or 2 max then was dropped

In 2020 he scored 2 100s and averaged 47.70

He’s just better

Fair points again, Lyth has always been relatively consistent but neither were banging the door down. That said, who does these days? Gone are the days of a batsman scoring 1500 runs a season or averaging 60+

Robson much better shout than Lyth mind. He’s more of a hardened opener
I suspect Bracey will get a go at number 3 at some stage too

100 for the lions last month

 

[Voice of fair play]

Sibley is a better opening bat than burns by the way

His average only ended up less because he played all 7 tests in Asia

Burns played 1 or 2 max then was dropped

In 2020 he scored 2 100s and averaged 47.70

He’s just better


Robson much better shout than Lyth mind. He’s more of a hardened opener
I suspect Bracey will get a go at number 3 at some stage too

100 for the lions last month

Sibley has not played one test at all against the Aussies not one, where Burns has played two series against them.

His average seen as you brought it up would be a lot worse imo, if he had played against what we all agree is a superb Aussie attack.

It’s matter of opinion but I think Burns is better than Sibley.

You seem to be arguing Sibley has had a harder time because he played more in Asia.

Burns has had it harder playing against the Aussies twice with their bowling attack bowling brilliantly both times!

 

[chunkyshanhawk53]

Sibley isn’t the answer. He can look solid at times, but he just doesn’t have a method of scoring runs consistently. He may face 60 balls, but he’ll have 8 and then got a good one (because the bowlers are higher class)

One of the reasons that Root is so good is that he has so many options for 1s and 2s, the scoreboard can rattle along. So if he gets a good one he’s already got 40

 

[Voice of fair play]

Sibley isn’t the answer. He can look solid at times, but he just doesn’t have a method of scoring runs consistently. He may face 60 balls, but he’ll have 8 and then got a good one (because the bowlers are higher class)

One of the reasons that Root is so good is that he has so many options for 1s and 2s, the scoreboard can rattle along. So if he gets a good one he’s already got 40

The problem with Sibley and Hameed is they do not rotate the strike.

Sibley in particular has such limited scoring shots that with all the analysts around nowadays teams would just limit his scoring even more if that possible.

 

[The Breen Machine]

Sibley is a better opening bat than burns by the way

His average only ended up less because he played all 7 tests in Asia

Burns played 1 or 2 max then was dropped

In 2020 he scored 2 100s and averaged 47.70

He’s just better


Robson much better shout than Lyth mind. He’s more of a hardened opener
I suspect Bracey will get a go at number 3 at some stage too

100 for the lions last month

Don’t disagree with that at all although I don’t think Bracey is ready for number 3 yet. I’d keep Malan there.

 

[Deleted member 21908]

If we do, go down the route, of picking batters on technique. My top seven would be:

Robson
Bracey
Root
Vince
Stokes
Pope
Foakes (wk)

 

[The Rat]

Don’t disagree with that at all although I don’t think Bracey is ready for number 3 yet. I’d keep Malan there.

Yeah wouldn’t pick him just think he will get a gig

Hope people don’t judge him on that number 7 performance

 

[Ashley In!!]

Have we reached a decision on which everyone is agreed yet or should I pop back again tomorrow?

 

[rentaghost]

Out of all the opening bat options I think Sibley is currently the weakest and the easiest for quality attacks to bowl to now that he has been worked out. Set a predominately leg side ring field and bowl straight and he can barely score a run. Again if he is to get another chance he needs to make significant changes but at least he seems to have mental strength.

 

[Sea to Shining Sea]

Hain, Billings, Salt, Livingstone, Bracey (as a bat only) should all be under consideration going forward. Bit of a combination of temperament and technique.

Of the current batting line up only Root and Stokes should be assured of their place. I certainly don’t want to see another summer given to the likes of Burns, Buttler and Bairstow. They’re very much the wrong side of 30 and have proven that they aren’t able to perform anything like consistently in red ball cricket. The latter two are world class white ball cricketers and should be appreciated as such.

 

[The Rat]

Out of all the opening bat options I think Sibley is currently the weakest and the easiest for quality attacks to bowl to now that he has been worked out. Set a predominately leg side ring field and bowl straight and he can barely score a run. Again if he is to get another chance he needs to make significant changes but at least he seems to have mental strength.

For burns

Bowl at the stumps

Hain, Billings, Salt, Livingstone, Bracey (as a bat only) should all be under consideration going forward. Bit of a combination of temperament and technique.

Of the current batting line up only Root and Stokes should be assured of their place. I certainly don’t want to see another summer given to the likes of Burns, Buttler and Bairstow. They’re very much the wrong side of 30 and have proven that they aren’t able to perform anything like consistently in red ball cricket. The latter two are world class white ball cricketers and should be appreciated as such.

Hain has no red ball pedigree does he?

I actually think Billings isn’t the worst shout as keeper but would he average more than Buttler 34 over the last few years

Buttler hasn’t done badly at all

Vince will be ahead of all those you’ve named IMo

Burns and pope need sending back to county cricket

It’s not the end for them but they need to work on their weaknessss

The main issue with burns and I don’t get why people keep defining him, is that he hasn’t at any stage tried to alter his technique for test cricket

How can he say “this is the way I play”
If at any stage he had worked hard on his faults then I’d be up for keeping him but he hasn’t.

He simply hasn’t worked hard enough

I recommend you listen to butcher on Wisden on this issue. How batsmsn aren’t prepared to put the work into adapt to test cricket

 

[Sea to Shining Sea]

For burns

Bowl at the stumps


Hain has no red ball pedigree does he?

I actually think Billings isn’t the worst shout as keeper but would he average more than Buttler 34 over the last few years

Buttler hasn’t done badly at all

Vince will be ahead of all those you’ve named IMo

Burns and pope need sending back to county cricket

It’s not the end for them but they need to work on their weaknessss

The main issue with burns and I don’t get why people keep defining him, is that he hasn’t at any stage tried to alter his technique for test cricket

How can he say “this is the way I play”
If at any stage he had worked hard on his faults then I’d be up for keeping him but he hasn’t.

He simply hasn’t worked hard enough

I recommend you listen to butcher on Wisden on this issue. How batsmsn aren’t prepared to put the work into adapt to test cricket

Hain has a 36 FC average. Salt averaging 30. Neither anything to write home about but young enough and, Salt in particular, shown some ‘big game’ pedigree and temperament. Become a bit of a trope but maybe have to think along the lines of what we did early 00s when we had a bit of a sea change in test cricket. Assess their temperament, willingness and desire for test cricket and go from there.

Edit: yes. I listened to Butcher. He’s been very good throughout this series IMO

 

[The Rat]

Hain has a 36 FC average. Salt averaging 30. Neither anything to write home about but young enough and, Salt in particular, shown some ‘big game’ pedigree and temperament. Become a bit of a trope but maybe have to think along the lines of what we did early 00s when we had a bit of a sea change in test cricket. Assess their temperament, willingness and desire for test cricket and go from there.

Edit: yes. I listened to Butcher. He’s been very good throughout this series IMO

Yeah I've said before Salt isn\t the worst shout as an outsider, not sold on Hain personally

I really hope Kirsten gets the job as I liked what he said about finding the best technically proficient batsmen in the country, who play straight, then taking it from there.

I dont think we have done that enough, picked on technique i mean, we actually pick on character more than most sides, despite what people say on here, its why we have so many with so many quirky techniques, who probs shouldnt end up anywhere near the side if you were analysing how they play.

I'd quite like Vince and Joe Clarke to get a run, as I think they have those attributes, maybe in a better setup.

No easy solutions, but thats what I want to see. I really liked Kirsten's interview, in terms of content, I accept its weird he is even talking about it. Was just go to see someone outline a basic plan of how they would pick a test team

 

[smoker]

Robson much better shout than Lyth mind.

Neither is much good. Did you see Athers, Nasser and Butcher pick apart Robson's technique as an example of poor technique and off stump guard in the CC? He'd get murdered.