June to July 2020 - NUFC

[Anthony From Blue]

No news again today, gents? Such a shame

 

[Blue_Monday]

Benitez did an average job at Newcastle, Bruce has also done an average job so far, on no planet should Bruce ever be considered half the manager Benitez is, however judging them both only on the job they have done at Newcastle they are pretty much equal. A lot of Newcastle fans will never accept this purely because he is Steve Bruce and not a big name, same with Pardew who had has been the most successful Newcastle manager since Robson and is still universally hated.

 

[timeforheroes1]

if it does go through i would laugh me tits off if they get wor rafa back, millions spent on shite , 10 men behind the ball , be off with his head before long

 

[Secret Visage]

Big Mike swatting the mag whoppers away with ease.

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[Tiote]

Benitez did an average job at Newcastle, Bruce has also done an average job so far, on no planet should Bruce ever be considered half the manager Benitez is, however judging them both only on the job they have done at Newcastle they are pretty much equal. A lot of Newcastle fans will never accept this purely because he is Steve Bruce and not a big name, same with Pardew who had has been the most successful Newcastle manager since Robson and is still universally hated.

I mean, if you take things on the basis of individual seasons and don't look at trajectories or performances, then yeah, you're right.

Benitez took Newcastle from relegation material to a solid, mid table finish three years later - in the last six months of his tenure we were one of the league's form teams in terms of points and the sixth highest scoring team in the league as well.

Bruce came in and spent £60 million+ to make us worse in literally every aspect - both objectively, from a stats perspective , and subjectively from a "this is f***ing turgid to watch" perspective. This is under what should be a new manager bounce.

Pardew is disliked a) coz he's a collosal twat, and b) because despite one good season, the rest of his time here was a farce. The media love in only emphasised this contempt, just like with Bruce.

Sunderland fans should know better than anyone the dangers of judging managers on short term performances instead of long term ideas and projects.

 

[Secret Visage]

I mean, if you take things on the basis of individual seasons and don't look at trajectories or performances, then yeah, you're right.

Benitez took Newcastle from relegation material to a solid, mid table finish three years later - in the last six months of his tenure we were one of the league's form teams in terms of points and the sixth highest scoring team in the league as well.

Bruce came in and spent £60 million+ to make us worse in literally every aspect - both objectively, from a stats perspective , and subjectively from a "this is f***ing turgid to watch" perspective. This is under what should be a new manager bounce.

Pardew is disliked a) coz he's a collosal twat, and b) because despite one good season, the rest of his time here was a farce. The media love in only emphasised this contempt, just like with Bruce.

Sunderland fans should know better than anyone the dangers of judging managers on short term performances instead of long term ideas and projects.

Benitez "project" is in China.

 

[Tiote]

Benitez "project" is in China.

Bruce's project is in Greggs. What's your point.

 

[BigPete]

Hes fucked off for China ages ago and the mags still have his spunk dribbling down their chins

 

[Banks]

More than Joelinton.

Has he though?

Almirons been there twice as long. I bet per appearance Joelinton has contributed more.

You love your stats oh but this time it doesn't show the point you want to make
Almiron
40 appearances
2 goals
2 assists

Vs
Joelinton
31 appearances
2 Goals
2 assists

 

[Tiote]

Has he though?

Almirons been there twice as long. I bet per appearance Joelinton has contributed more.

You love your stats oh but this time it doesn't show the point you want to make
Almiron
40 appearances
2 goals
2 assists

Vs
Joelinton
31 appearances
2 Goals
2 assists

Doesn't take a footballing academic to figure out that someone playing as a central striker should've been involved in more goals than someone playing as a winger, like. Especially a Steve Bruce winger which is essentially an auxiliary full back.

Almiron's return is shite but Joelinton's is objectively worse.

 

[Banks]

Doesn't take a footballing academic to figure out that someone playing as a central striker should've been involved in more goals than someone playing as a winger, like. Especially a Steve Bruce winger which is essentially an auxiliary full back.

Almiron's return is shite but Joelinton's is objectively worse.

Nobody said Joelintons class but you move the goalposts when speaking about Almiron. Both signings have been shite but your fans claim Almiron has been a success.

 

[Tiote]

Nobody said Joelintons class but you move the goalposts when speaking about Almiron. Both signings have been shite but your fans claim Almiron has been a success.

I think opinion is pretty split on Almiron tbh. He's a grafter and that probably earns him more leeway than someone who "looks" inherently lazy like Joelinton, even if that isn't necessarily the case.

Add to that the respective transfer fees and obviously the appraisal of Joelinton is going to be more harsh.

Both are limited players, but it's easier to see where and how Almiron would fit into a decent Premier league team than Joelinton. He doesn't look a premier league player in a million years to me.

Hes fucked off for China ages ago and the mags still have his spunk dribbling down their chins

Not really, it's just relevant for context since apparently your fans can't get their heads around why people may be unhappy with Bruce as his successor. Which is odd, because when I first signed up to this forum he was your gaffa and I clearly remember the vitriol towards him on here.

 

[The Fish]

Maybe to you but to me it speaks of my irritation over the way he's went on rather than a dislike for him.

Yeah, I tend to like people who's behaviour irritates me too...

I did see control in his systems and I also saw a lot of pure luck in his set up, at times.

I don't get this, every manager benefits from luck on occasion, but when the fundamentals are sound, when the system is sound, they're less reliant on it. Bruce has been reliant on good fortune.

Benitez did get plenty out of his players. I agree on that, but not in the right way, IMO, in terms of harmony...and it showed in a lot of players, because he basically destroyed anything we had as what could be construed as flair players.
His aim was to go out and not lose, rather than to go out and win the game by taking the game to the opposition that we were easily on par with.

Benitez doesn't prefer flair players, this is undeniable, but he's been extremely successful in his career and built, at Newcastle, the foundations to allow us to play with more dynamism up front. There were plenty of games where we were set up to get all three points, predicated on a solid defence. Once your defensive unit is cohesive and reliable, you can afford more freedom to your attackers. The best form of defence isn't attack, it's good defending. That's why terrific attacking sides with a poor defence end up on the receiving end of sound beatings. Norwich play some lovely stuff and are rock bottom. Arsenal can be dazzling in attack and get unstuck when facing a resolute defence.

To be fair, Benitez relied on Dubravka as well and all of his keepers....no different to Bruce in that respect.

Not in the same league as Bruce man. Dubravka has made more saves than any other 'keeper in the league (118 so far), last season he only had to make 94, total.

Yep, I agree but we also did a lot of that under Benitez but with very little flair, unlike what Bruce has been trying to instill for a decent amount of the season.

That's just not true.

Nahhh, I disagree.
What we do suffer is the finishing, not the setting up.
The football has been much better to watch under Bruce, barring the odd games which have been dire.

We are 20th in the league for creating chances (4th in the league for allowing them). The football has, at times, been a better watch under Bruce for the neutral, I grant you. But how much of that is down to Saint-Maximin because, frankly, the rest of the team aren't getting me out my seat. There were times under Benitez where we played some lovely stuff, chiefly after Almiron was bought and we had a player who could carry the ball at pace.

He's no world beater but then again if he's bang average, he's doing ok for being bang average. As good as Benitez was and it took Benitez 3 seasons to stay bang average. Bruce has had under a season and a disrupted one at that.

Eh? you're confusing achievement with ability. Benitez delivered automatic promotion, a top 10 finish and a midtable finish. He got the team playing from a sound footing and was adding some quality to our attack. Bruce has inherited a good defence and knackered it, in less than a season. I'd rather have a good manager who's rebuilding, than a bang average manager who's undoing the good work.

And if your disdain of him is not due to him managing Sunderland then my post doesn't mean you. It means the some fans, that I mentioned.

I think the fans who are bothered about Bruce being an ex-Sunderland manager are not worth worrying about.

Football has changed but its been made complicated for such a simple game. It's been turned into scientific mumbo jumbo so punters can sound clever when evaluating the game.
Players asked to be racehorses and to eat certain diets while their entire bodies are subjected to all kinds of manipulations on top of gauges attached to their kit.
And yet, for all this, there's more injuries for longer periods, with some players taking time out for knocks and all kinds of drivel.

It's a sport played by elite athletes, so yes, they eat better and gone are the halftime pies and cigarettes. Good.
Are there more injuries or are the players just taken better care of? You here tales of players who broke a bone and carried on playing, as if that improves the quality of the football. It's nonsense.
And with the scientific mumbo-jumbo has come better football. Football played at a faster pace, with more entertainment on show. Worldies now aren't just someone leathering it from 30yds. Football is better now than it's ever been.

When you play a team, they have to worry about you, just as much as you have to worry about them.
If you can't cope with their style then make them suffer with your own.
It's almost protocol that managers have to follow suit of set up's in games. It's nonsense on the whole.

It's not though, it's a realistic appraisal of your teams strengths versus the opposition's. Brunley haven't the players to go to Man City and play on the front foot, they'll be annihilated. Hell, Burnley can't go to Everton, or Wolves and play on the front foot. If they tried to play the ball around their players' limited ability would see them surrender possession cheaply, get caught out of position too often and leave their limited defenders exposed. So they play to their strengths. Packed, organised defence, long balls up to powerful forwards. It works.

If you have two big old fashioned centre forwards in a 4/4/2 then the team you're up against has to cater for that when they're on the back foot.
All this passing around the park works for the elites....if....the wolves are not willing to hound them.
It's a simple game of hard work and simple tactics.

No it isn't. Not any more. If it was purely hard work and simple tactics then Burnley and Newcastle would top the table. Even then I'm doing a disservice to Burnley and Newcastle.

I lose count of the people that shout to others...." oh you know nowt about football." It makes me smirk because we all have our views and we all watch the game and see it how we see it, which is why we all have differing opinions.

We do, although some are informed opinions...

 

[Banks]

I think opinion is pretty split on Almiron tbh. He's a grafter and that probably earns him more leeway than someone who "looks" inherently lazy like Joelinton, even if that isn't necessarily the case.

Add to that the respective transfer fees and obviously the appraisal of Joelinton is going to be more harsh.

Both are limited players, but it's easier to see where and how Almiron would fit into a decent Premier league team than Joelinton. He doesn't look a premier league player in a million years to me.

Might help if you played Joelinton in his natural position like he isn't a striker.

Sheff Utd game showed he had pace like Almiron.

Other than pace I don't really see what qualities Almiron has. He can't pass he can't shoot his technique is poor for a South American player

 

[Tiote]

Might help if you played Joelinton in his natural position like he isn't a striker.

Sheff Utd game showed he had pace like Almiron.

Other than pace I don't really see what qualities Almiron has. He can't pass he can't shoot his technique is poor for a South American player

Probably not far from the truth. Again though, this comes back to the manager, if he isn't a striker he shouldn't be hung out to dry playing there. We have other options who are actual strikers, and since they're all equally limited it seems daft throwing the bloke out of position in his first season in the league.

 

[Blue_Monday]

I mean, if you take things on the basis of individual seasons and don't look at trajectories or performances, then yeah, you're right.

Benitez took Newcastle from relegation material to a solid, mid table finish three years later - in the last six months of his tenure we were one of the league's form teams in terms of points and the sixth highest scoring team in the league as well.

Bruce came in and spent £60 million+ to make us worse in literally every aspect - both objectively, from a stats perspective , and subjectively from a "this is f***ing turgid to watch" perspective. This is under what should be a new manager bounce.

Pardew is disliked a) coz he's a collosal twat, and b) because despite one good season, the rest of his time here was a farce. The media love in only emphasised this contempt, just like with Bruce.

Sunderland fans should know better than anyone the dangers of judging managers on short term performances instead of long term ideas and projects.

Bruce lost Perez and Rondon, the team this season is worse than the one from last season.

Pardew finished 5th,next season he got to a Europa league quarter final, next season he finished 10th and was actually in the top 6 until Cabaye was sold in the January and it all fell apart, he was also 10th the season he left. all superior to anything Benitez did.

 

[Banks]

Probably not far from the truth. Again though, this comes back to the manager, if he isn't a striker he shouldn't be hung out to dry playing there. We have other options who are actual strikers, and since they're all equally limited it seems daft throwing the bloke out of position in his first season in the league.

Your lovely fans also should be more patient. It's a fact players take a while to adapt to the premier League from South American players.

The same fans who gave Almiron patience are criticising Joelinton all because Rafa signed Almiron. It's pathetic

 

[The Fish]

The thing with our previous managers tenure which I struggle with, is that it’s reduced a lot of his supporters to resorting to pointless stats and pointless jargon to defend the OK job he did for us.
The rhetoric I’ve seen used of ‘forward plans’, ‘stable progression’ etc is completely pulled out of People’s arses because they can’t handle the fact that Bruce is doing a decent job and certainly no worse than his predecessor. Let’s not forget a lot of the anti Bruce know it all’s we’re nailing him on for relegation which to me instantly dismisses Both their theory and credibility.

One bloke recently talked about Benitez providing ‘stable progression’ despite finishing 3 places lower than his previous campaign. Progression my arse.

For me, I also judge people on their performance with us than what they have done previously in their careers. Dalglish was a league winner / Gullit a cup winner but I didn’t pander to them based on that. I judged them on their time with us which is exactly what I’ll do with Bruce.

I was underwhelmed with Bruce’s appt, but he’s doing an OK job, exactly the same as his predecessor.

Bruce is doing an all right job, but I'm not blind to context. We've been unbelievably lucky, and as I've said elsewhere we're hugely reliant on Dubravka this season. Said to mates I can't think of a season where we've been more indebted to a 'keeper. If we'd been playing a worse 'keeper for the season I honestly believe we'd be in real danger of relegation, as his excellence has won us points on his own.

Benitez has his faults, absolutely; ditching the cups, too often playing it safe, etc. I do think he put in place the foundations to kick us on. If you base progress solely on league finish, you're dismissing everything else and the fluidity of the league table. 17/18 we finished 10th on 44pts, 18/19 we finished 13th on 45pts.

 

[Tiote]

Bruce lost Perez and Rondon, the team this season is worse than the one from last season.

Pardew finished 5th,next season he got to a Europa league quarter final, next season he finished 10th and was actually in the top 6 until Cabaye was sold in the January and it all fell apart, he was also 10th the season he left. all superior to anything Benitez did.

Pardew had a lot of good players to work with, but our form under him in 2013-14 was a literal meme, "not a welsh town" etc.

Again, if you're analysing without context, then yes, you can make Alan Pardew look like a competent manager and a success - better than Benitez. But any football fan knows, of course, that he is a managerial joke and has ultimately only took every club that he has managed backwards. That's why context is more important than raw stats, but of course, you already know that.

 

[The Fish]

Your lovely fans also should be more patient. It's a fact players take a while to adapt to the premier League from South American players.

The same fans who gave Almiron patience are criticising Joelinton all because Rafa signed Almiron. It's pathetic

That's not the reason why Joelinton is getting stick.

Almiron has returned more than Joelinton, and has had sufficient good games to give him a bit of leeway. Joelinton has been played out of position from the off, in an unfamiliar role in an unfamiliar league. But, Joelinton has looked lost too often.