• The forums will be unavailable for a few hours on Saturday 6th June, when they do return they will initially be in a degraded state with some features missing, but normal posting/reading will be possible. The main website will not be affected by these updates.
    New user registrations are currently disabled.
    Some other features of the forum are also currently disabled.

New buyers put off by £20 million hole in accounts

Status
Not open for further replies.

Safc88 said:
Only investing in donald?

it was never a takeover?

haway man
Click to expand...

I don't believe the words "only" or "Donald" were in that first sentence in the real quote.

And if I remember correctly, the context of the second one was that they were being asked about a 100% takeover.

If I'm wrong and you have the actual quotes handy, by all means post them.
 
KittenMittens said:
I've had this conversation with GG and he seems a reasonable and decent chap (as I suspect we all are when we're not passionate about something!)

I think a lot of this is just people on all sides trying to be definitive about a very fluid process that believe me, when you go through it, is not as simple as 'yes' or 'no'. No deal is a done deal until you're signed off, even if you like the look of a business from the outside, you don't 'agree a takeover' of that business until you know what it's really like, which can only be done with due diligence. I suspect FPP were interested in assessing the whole club with a view to one day potentially owning us, that much I think we can all agree on?

As an analogy, FPP's directors might look at a Ferrari racecar going for a bargain price in a dealership and think from the outside it looks like a no-brainer, saying 'sod it, this is a bargain and look at it's performance last year, we'll get in there early and turn it into a race winner!' But once you get your own trusted mechanic under the hood and find this Ferrari you're looking at has 500,000 miles on the clock, you would probably think it was not quite what you assumed at first glance, and while you were waiting, that 4th place Ferrari is a 10th place family saloon. That's DD in a nutshell. You find out the reality, pay someone else to give a clear picture of what the risks and liabilities are etc, and keep an open mind.

In the end they went somewhere in the middle, implying that we have the engine of a Ferrari, but that it's f***ing knackered and needs a complete overhaul. They like our potential, they just see the flaws and think they could be fundamental to whether they buy us or not, so it looks like they've lent Donald the money to fix the engine (get out of this division) and if he does, it seems that they'll buy us.

If he doesn't, who knows what happens. Maybe he pays them back. Maybe they go and buy a Porsche instead. Maybe they decide to try and get their own mechanic in and buy us anyway because they can't get that first Ferrari out of their head. Maybe they give up on cars.

And maybe this is all wrong, but what I'm communicating here is that saying 'it was a takeover' or 'it wasn't a takeover' is a really absolute position to take on a subject that the parties involved were probably not as sure on :D
Click to expand...

With the sale price it’s more akin to when you list your second hand shit on eBay and you try to sell it for fifty quid knowing that it’s only really worth a tenner. Every now and then some idiot comes along and pays the £50 much to your amazement but 99 times out of 100 you have to drop the price to a tenner to get it sold and get positive feedback.
 
fyl2u said:
I don't believe the words "only" or "Donald" were in that first sentence in the real quote.

And if I remember correctly, the context of the second one was that they were being asked about a 100% takeover.

If I'm wrong and you have the actual quotes handy, by all means post them.
Click to expand...

This is nothing more than a distraction.

You get everyone involved in semantics, precise wording and salami slicing statements word by word - for no other reason to get people replying and pouring their energy and attention towards that and not the real problem.

You're the equivalent of people on social media and politicians latching on to the failure to meet testing targets, and all the time those involved aren't discussing the horrific death rate.

The fact is we're in deep shit and could be whole lot worse next season, but you won't discuss that openly, you'll only want to ask people to provide more and more and more "proof" about whether SD said precisely "something" or not.

For only the third time in over 10 years I'm using the ignore button.

Go well.
 
KittenMittens said:
Said it yesterday on 606, but there is so much wrong with the Short > Donald deal.

This has been bugging me this morning talking with my mates about the Athletic article.

Short ran up that debt. You may argue it was the club doing it, but it wasn't. It was Short using a loan mechanism to finance something he wanted to do, not the club as some sentient being. Even worse, he actually made himself a martyr at one point by then saying how good he was for doing so, so it's not really an argument that Short was benefiting from the perception that he was a benevolent owner, while simultaneously running up debt using the club as a vehicle. Ultimately he signed off on all of those debts and forced that position onto the club, never tried to cut costs or understand why we were operating at such a dramatic loss even while TV revenue went through the roof.

Logon or register to see this image


In our programme notes after Micky Gray called him out:




And this is the crux of it, if our owner takes us on and 'funds significant shortfalls' that result from his own mismanagement, his decisions and his desire to spend more than he is recouping, then why is the club left with a debt at the end of it?

Does the club get a proportion of the money he makes if he sells for a profit? No, cash isn't taken out of the seller's pocket and put into the club, at least not in real terms.

The club is passed to someone else as a clean slate for them. In this case, Short racked up hundreds of millions of debt funding his own mismanagement, and when the time came to pay it, he found two people who were willing to channel £25m to him out of the club's future revenue. As I say, if we wouldn't expect a departing owner to donate cash to us if they made a profit, why do we expect a departing owner to saddle us with their debt when they leave?

Donald and Methven then effectively used the club to give themselves an interest free loan that they sent to Ellis Short as part of this deal, and then wiped from their own liabilities before it was repaid, while simultaneously using it to inflate the purchase price they have not paid.

I have no sympathy for Donald here. He either had the money to pay Short and instead took £25m out of the club at a time when it was needed most, or he didn't have the money and misled everyone, including the EFL, as to his ability to buy the club. The one thing we can be sure of is that Ellis Short was in on either of those options and that he has ultimately benefited, with some evidence suggesting that another bid would have seen the entire debt written off and no parachute payments taken out of the club.

I don't believe in the Ellis Short benevolence myth, because he failed us twice. First when he left us drifting in the wind in 2017-18 causing a second consecutive relegation, and second when he sold us to Donald so he could recoup some of the debts that he had run up using the club's accounts.
Click to expand...
Brilliant post
 
JC91 said:
I'd be even more surprised if the club even entertained listening to anyone talk about a fan forum.


I'd be even more surprised if the club even entertained listening to anyone talk about a fan forum.
Click to expand...
You'd be surprised then, the club reads this board, always have, I'm sure there's been a few times Roger has been contacted about posts on here.
 
JC91 said:
I'd be even more surprised if the club even entertained listening to anyone talk about a fan forum.


I'd be even more surprised if the club even entertained listening to anyone talk about a fan forum.
Click to expand...

A fans forum reflects the mood and atmosphere of the general support, of course they will read the forums....in addition the echo has often documented points and thoughts that have 100% come from here
 
Last edited:
Zak's Dad said:
This is nothing more than a distraction.

You get everyone involved in semantics, precise wording and salami slicing statements word by word - for no other reason to get people replying and pouring their energy and attention towards that and not the real problem.

You're the equivalent of people on social media and politicians latching on to the failure to meet testing targets, and all the time those involved aren't discussing the horrific death rate.

The fact is we're in deep shit and could be whole lot worse next season, but you won't discuss that openly, you'll only want to ask people to provide more and more and more "proof" about whether SD said precisely "something" or not.

For only the third time in over 10 years I'm using the ignore button.

Go well.
Click to expand...

Suit yourself on the "ignore".

But with regard to "semantics" and "slicing statements word by word", if you're going to accuse someone of lying, like so many people are accusing SD of, then semantics and "slicing statements word for word" are actually very important. A lot of folks are taking half-sentences and half statements out of context, and taking misremembered statements and complete misquotes as if they were the real quotes, and then screaming "SEE, THEY'RE LIARS!" from the rooftops when something later doesn't fit their memory of those quotes.

Everyone knows we're nowhere near where we "should" be. That isn't even up for debate. Nobody is saying that everything's rosy.

If whether or not the owners are liars isn't the issue, then perhaps you should tell that to the folks that keep posting @fyl2u ten times a day with their latest "evidence" that the owners are lying. :lol:
 
fyl2u said:
Oh really? And when you say "more proof" I presume you actually mean "some proof", considering all-but-one examples of the rest of the "proof" has been pure bullshittery from the anti-SD mob?

Can you sum it up for me so that I don't have to go trawling through a 137-page thread to find out what it is?
Click to expand...
Is this guy that Fishpaste bloke from twitter? Reeks of him. Condescending patronising twat. I don’t even think he thinks he’s right in all this like he just enjoys speakin to ppl in a certain way
 
The Cabbage said:
It’s absolutely clear that SD has a fairly significant ego - and is determined to play at football ownership. The utter lack of self-awareness of quite how bad he is at it is tied up in the egotism too.
Click to expand...
we never agree on posts, but I think you will all find out its going to be a different attitude from now. That's all the way from top to bottom.
I did say give Jim 6-8 weeks to get things moving he has due to corvid only spent 1 day up here, so lets see how it goes.
Axionknight said:
You're an absolute tit, Bob.

No one with at least half a brain in their noggin' would believe a word that you say, do yourself a favour and give it up.
Click to expand...
ok f off there I gave up
chopsfc007 said:
Not sure who talks more bullshit Donald or bob
Click to expand...
or you posting more negative shit as usual
 
Last edited:
fyl2u said:
Suit yourself on the "ignore".

But with regard to "semantics" and "slicing statements word by word", if you're going to accuse someone of lying, like so many people are accusing SD of, then semantics and "slicing statements word for word" are actually very important. A lot of folks are taking half-sentences and half statements out of context, and taking misremembered statements and complete misquotes as if they were the real quotes, and then screaming "SEE, THEY'RE LIARS!" from the rooftops when something later doesn't fit their memory of those quotes.

Everyone knows we're nowhere near where we "should" be. That isn't even up for debate. Nobody is saying that everything's rosy.

If whether or not the owners are liars isn't the issue, then perhaps you should tell that to the folks that keep posting @fyl2u ten times a day with their latest "evidence" that the owners are lying. :lol:
Click to expand...
Exactly, trying to do things and not quite achieving them (yet) does not make people liars.
GarethQ said:
It was definitely a takeover. I know that Methven was briefing some involved with fanzines that it was a takeover, and that they should be drumming up excitement in the fanbase over the weekend it was due to complete. Whether they acted on it I don’t know. Methven was and is still texting fans privately even though he’s ‘not involved’.

Look at Paul Allan Walls twitter posts/activity over that weekend. He was an advisor at the club.

It was a takeover with FPP. It was a takeover with Mark Campbell. You have to ask the question as to why they failed on both occasions.
Click to expand...
Fair enough, ask the questions but don't give answers that don't have a factual base (quotes for example).
 
Last edited:
MADBOB THE MAKEM said:
we never agree on posts, but I think you will all find out its going to be a different attitude from now. That's all the way from top to bottom.
I did say give Jim 6-8 weeks to get things moving he has due to corvid only spent 1 day up here, so lets see how it goes.
Click to expand...
Bob, Stewart Donald has promised the fans he would sell, the club statement said he was fully committed to selling, so has he changed his mind or was he bullshitting about that too. “Jim” always gets things moving, but it has always been downward, he doesn’t deserve a chance, but we have no choice. Another in a long line of appalling appointments by your Donald, he hasn’t got a clue
 
MADBOB THE MAKEM said:
we never agree on posts, but I think you will all find out its going to be a different attitude from now. That's all the way from top to bottom.
I did say give Jim 6-8 weeks to get things moving he has due to corvid only spent 1 day up here, so lets see how it goes.

ok f off there I gave up

or you posting more negative shit as usual
Click to expand...
You claimed Donald doesn't lie thats bullshit robert, you have had a go at our fantastic fan base for criticising an owner who has one lied to us, two overseen the worst position in our history, now forgive me for not defending the indefensible.
 
Confucius said:
Bob, Stewart Donald has promised the fans he would sell, the club statement said he was fully committed to selling, so has he changed his mind or was he bullshitting about that too. “Jim” always gets things moving, but it has always been downward, he doesn’t deserve a chance, but we have no choice. Another in a long line of appalling appointments by your Donald, he hasn’t got a clue
Click to expand...

Jim only been up here working for 1 day which is 1 more day than Donald has in the last 5 months. Give the lad a chance...
 
Abu Dhabi Red and White said:
Exactly, trying to do things and not quite achieving them (yet) does not make people liars.

Fair enough, ask the questions but don't give answers that don't have a factual base (quotes for example).
Click to expand...

It seems that you require audio, vhs, dvd, Betamax recordings, full quotes and a written and signed statement to prove anything to some people. Even then there’s be a full lip reading and phonetic analysis of that proof.

Believe what you like.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top