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March to June 2020 - NEWCASTLE UTD fc

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Obvious Mag said:
He did yes - but £20m is small fry relatively in the Premier League. You've got Villa forking out £22m on Wesley and us £40m on Joelinton. Don't get me wrong he was backed but not to the extent of bizarrely McClaren or what they seem to be offering Bruce.

I'd like to have seen how he played it politically if say he got given £100m for a transfer window or was given control over signings and we still sat back and hoped for the best (which whether it was Burton or Man City we still did it)
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Maybe but Benitez knew what he was signing up for and that certainly wasn’t huge budgets and total control.
In the main and despite some howlers I think he spent his money wisely.
 

The Fish said:
That would be mental if it was remotely accurate. But it isn't, so it's just nonsense.

Judge a manager over a season, sure, but to cherry pick 29 games from the full season, to compare against 29 played by the other is folly. Judge them on a per game basis and you've a better indication. The final part of the season saw Benitez' side improve. You're deliberately discounting them because if you were to include them it disproves your position. I've shown you the stats and I'm telling you that Bruce's Newcastle has played worse than Benitez' thus far. If Bruce gets better performances out of this team in the final 9 games then he's done better than Benitez did.

I've never said Benitez is faultless, his pragmatism cost us points where a more expansive manager may have won them. His signings were hit & miss, for every Schar or Dubravka, there's a Gamez or Sels.

But to try and claim Bruce is better, or has Newcastle playing better is just demonstrably untrue. We have more points, but even on here I've seen people insist that's more down to good fortune than any ability.
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Its not cherry picking 29 games and it is entirely accurate. It a large sample (according to you) and the only sample that's realistic considering Bruce has only managed 29 games. Apart from of course the FA cup where he got you further than you have in 30 years or do. Is it unfair to compare FA cup records or does that not fit your narrative? Your stats are nonsense football doesn't get decided on the number of shots a team has against them or a number of clean sheets. I remember Sunderland being 4th bottom of the second division with Mick Buxton in charge and we were 5th in the clean sheet and goals conceded table. Should we have been using that as an argument in his favour? Its crackers man.
Obvious Mag said:
He did yes - but £20m is small fry relatively in the Premier League. You've got Villa forking out £22m on Wesley and us £40m on Joelinton. Don't get me wrong he was backed but not to the extent of bizarrely McClaren or what they seem to be offering Bruce.

I'd like to have seen how he played it politically if say he got given £100m for a transfer window or was given control over signings and we still sat back and hoped for the best (which whether it was Burton or Man City we still did it)
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If he had stayed he could have had 40 million spent of Joelinton as well :lol:
 
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mad cyril said:
mate surely there’s not a football fan alive who would rather their team have less points but better stats ??
Not a chance I’d want to be on 29 points but have less shots against us.
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You're right, everyone wants as many points as possible. My point is that Benitez was getting roughly the same number of points as Bruce has been, by playing better football. If Bruce's luck runs out, there isn't the performance to fall back on, whereas with Benitez I had faith in the system because I could see we weren't giving up loads of good chances, I could see we were defending as a unit instead of individuals. I could see that with the right player added here or there we could build on the strong defence.

It's common wisdom that Bruce's teams tend to get worse as time goes on.
 
Obvious Mag said:
I'm not sure Benitez would have had as much grace under say, Shepherd.

He played himself well politically (as he did everywhere) as the anti-Mike Ashley. The football as a whole was poor to watch, still better than what Bruce serves up. He also seemed to have a plan and a vision - again the absolute anti-Ashley which I think we as fans jumped on.

I'd like to have seen Benitez properly backed in the Premier League to see what he could have done.

I like Bruce, he seems a nice guy and a vaguely safe pair of hands but he's a dinosaur and I honestly don't believe any Premier League club should or would have appointed him as manager.
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Mostly agree with that
 
rentaghost said:
Its not cherry picking 29 games and it is entirely accurate. It a large sample (according to you) and the only sample that's realistic considering Bruce has only managed 29 games. Apart from of course the FA cup where he got you further than you have in 30 years or do. Is it unfair to compare FA cup records or does that not fit your narrative? Your stats are nonsense football doesn't get decided on the number of shots a team has against them or a number of clean sheets. I remember Sunderland being 4th bottom of the second division with Mick Buxton in charge and we were 5th in the clean sheet and goals conceded table. Should we have been using that as an argument in his favour? Its crackers man.
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Stats add weight to an argument, but only if the other side is willing to listen to reasoned, evidence based arguments.
 
The Fish said:
You're right, everyone wants as many points as possible. My point is that Benitez was getting roughly the same number of points as Bruce has been, by playing better football. If Bruce's luck runs out, there isn't the performance to fall back on, whereas with Benitez I had faith in the system because I could see we weren't giving up loads of good chances, I could see we were defending as a unit instead of individuals. I could see that with the right player added here or there we could build on the strong defence.

It's common wisdom that Bruce's teams tend to get worse as time goes on.
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No you keep telling yourself that - he was getting considerably less points than Bruce over the 29 games and Bruce had you to the quarter finals of the FA cup. Having said that Rafa had his best ever FA cup season with you before getting you knocked out at home in the 4th round.
 
The Fish said:
You're right, everyone wants as many points as possible. My point is that Benitez was getting roughly the same number of points as Bruce has been, by playing better football. If Bruce's luck runs out, there isn't the performance to fall back on, whereas with Benitez I had faith in the system because I could see we weren't giving up loads of good chances, I could see we were defending as a unit instead of individuals. I could see that with the right player added here or there we could build on the strong defence.

It's common wisdom that Bruce's teams tend to get worse as time goes on.
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I think that with the right players added Benitez could have kicked on undoubtedly. Likewise, I trusted his system albeit negative and defensive but that’s his call.

The only point I ever try to make when it comes to Benitez is that he did no better than the job Bruce is currently doing. Both managers, judging solely on their respective times on Tyneside, are doing no better or worse than each other.
 
The Fish said:
Nah, Bruce is mint, better than Benitez, certainly.
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Seriously if your argument had been along the lines of "Bruce did well, the team he was given was weaker than the season before and to get those points and a Cup QF was a decent achievement - however moving forward I would rather have Rafa or a different manager because I don't think he will sustain it etc" That would be fair enough. Basically Bruce did miles better than you thought and like many with preconceived views they cant give credit where its due.
 
rentaghost said:
No you keep telling yourself that - he was getting considerably less points than Bruce over the 29 games and Bruce had you to the quarter finals of the FA cup. Having said that Rafa had his best ever FA cup season with you before getting you knocked out at home in the 4th round.
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Why don't the later games count for Benitez? Why only those 29 games and not 29 games plucked from the amidst 17/18 season?

Does it not make much more sense to take an average performance per game and extrapolate that?

Also, stats back up conversations about performance, points don't. You've all seen games where you've battered the opposition, and they've fluked a goal off an arse in their only attack. Records just say 3pts to the opposition. Stats tell the story of the game. Anyone who dismisses them is being deliberately obtuse, or are a Luddite.
 
The Fish said:
Why don't the later games count for Benitez? Why only those 29 games and not 29 games plucked from the amidst 17/18 season?

Does it not make much more sense to take an average performance per game and extrapolate that?

Also, stats back up conversations about performance, points don't. You've all seen games where you've battered the opposition, and they've fluked a goal off an arse in their only attack. Records just say 3pts to the opposition. Stats tell the story of the game. Anyone who dismisses them is being deliberately obtuse, or are a Luddite.
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That's how even the top teams win games. Still waiting for your evidence.
 
mad cyril said:
I think that with the right players added Benitez could have kicked on undoubtedly. Likewise, I trusted his system albeit negative and defensive but that’s his call.

The only point I ever try to make when it comes to Benitez is that he did no better than the job Bruce is currently doing. Both managers, judging solely on their respective times on Tyneside, are doing no better or worse than each other.
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I think that's giving Bruce a little more credit than he deserves, but I guess it's marginal and pointless arguing over small differences.
Father Jack Hackett said:
That's how even the top teams win games. Still waiting for your evidence.
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The top teams more often than not win games by having better players, playing football to a higher standard. That's why they're usually at the top of the table for stats and points.
 
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The Fish said:
On average they had 15 Shots against them per game, Stoke had 15.2. But, they had a low xGA, 10th in the league. So, like you say they let people take pot shots, but because they're of low quality their 'keeper can handle it relatively comfortably.

Bruce's Newcastle allow loads of shots (15.3), and have a high xGA 1.8 per game, 17th in the league. If that's the tactic, it's at best risky as fuck, at worst stupid.
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XGa is a joke man. It takes into account all sorts of nonsense. Football doesn’t work like that
 
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