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A system set up to fail

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Coeus said:
Kildare, you're a funny one. We have been through all of these things about 5 times involving many many posts and we have always come to the conclusion that I am right or you have taken something the wrong way, only then to come back a week later to say the same thing. It's bizarre as is the whole Stewrat thing, I don't know what to make of you matey?
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Definitely more than meets the eye that lad.
 

Coeus said:
RH is on negotiating, so will have been involved in Grigg.

SD suggested Grigg to Ross, not the other way round.

I'm not going through the youngsters again with you. You have been shown to not understand the contractual rules despite it being shown to you many times.
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RH negotiates yes-thats his role-he is the negotistor-he doesnt pick the players-he does the negotiating..
how do you know SD suggested GRigg? JR has said he is repsonsible for all signings..is he wrong? Evn idf SD said what about Grigg-JR can say no..he didnt...and said afterwards Grigg was his first choice for the role.
 
kildaremackem said:
RH negotiates yes-thats his role-he is the negotistor-he doesnt pick the players-he does the negotiating..
how do you know SD suggested GRigg? JR has said he is repsonsible for all signings..is he wrong? Evn idf SD said what about Grigg-JR can say no..he didnt...and said afterwards Grigg was his first choice for the role.
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SD said it on the podcast. Ross was happy with Strikers, SD asked him if he fancied Grigg.

Ross given the final choice is neither here nor there.

Can we just leave it there, we obviously have very different opinions and I am aware of yours having had this or similar conversations with you many times prior.

Billy Batts said:
Definitely more than meets the eye that lad.
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I get the feeling it is some obscure WUM account like @sessions or something?
 
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Coeus said:
SD said it on the podcast. Ross was happy with Strikers, SD asked him if he fancied Grigg.

Ross given the final choice is neither here nor there.

Can we just leave it there, we obviously have very different opinions and I am aware of yours having had this or similar conversations with you many times prior.
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so ross picked the striker-it was his decison? that was my point..I mean I dont think the original idea to sign luke onien came from ross..I doubt he had heard of him..but he got th choose him...whereas I reckon ozturk was ross call from day one..as i doubt anyone else had heard of him..ross is accountable for all signings...SD for none..thats ross's version of events so dont lie about him.
 
Coeus said:
SD said it on the podcast. Ross was happy with Strikers, SD asked him if he fancied Grigg.

Ross given the final choice is neither here nor there.

Can we just leave it there, we obviously have very different opinions and I am aware of yours having had this or similar conversations with you many times prior.



I get the feeling it is some obscure WUM account like @sessions or something?
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No, think he's something closer to the club, summat like that.
 
kildaremackem said:
so ross picked the striker-it was his decison? that was my point..I mean I dont think the original idea to sign luke onien came from ross..I doubt he had heard of him..but he got th choose him...whereas I reckon ozturk was ross call from day one..as i doubt anyone else had heard of him..ross is accountable for all signings...SD for none..thats ross's version of events so dont lie about him.
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Don't call me a liar friend.

I agree with O'nein and Ozturk, i differ in opinion as to who is accountable for them.

Billy Batts said:
No, think he's something closer to the club, summat like that.
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If its some kind of PR spin then it's not working.
 
Coeus said:
When so much onus is put upon the short term, a club is destined to fail in the long term imo.

You have a manager, that if he didn't before, will well and truly understand that he is only a month or two poor form away from the fans turning. This means he has to look at the immediate.

This will affect everything, style of play, transfers, confidence.

Similar to the owners, the plan is to build on the momentum for the immediate. Sell off the youngsters for low fee's while panic buying a striker at well over value. I don't doubt that the meaning isn't absolutely correct, it's just backwards imo. When you buy someone over value, you don't half ramp up the pressure so in a way, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Almost all weird decisions can be explained by this onus on the short term. The question is quite rightly being asked of the tactics, what happened to high pressing and why did this cautious approach take over? Well, the decision appears to have been made because we were leaking early goals and we have enough quality in McGeady & formerly Maja to win the game, so keep it safe. This alleviates the possible turning of the fans and certainly stops individual criticism should they lose the ball. We tried to play ourselves out of danger once against Oxford, the first time we had done it in weeks and we received a free kick, had we lost the ball and Oxford scored, there would have been hell to pay for the offender, why bother?

I'll stop prattling on now, but there you have it. A system set up to fail, if you can and do build momentum it will eventually crash and unless the onus, club-wide changes, we will never outperform.

TLDR = Manager is immaterial. Owners and fans fault.
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So it's the fans and owners problem that the manager of SAFC when faced with pressure isn't strong enough to stand by his own ideas and principles? surely the managers in football who have been up to it and whom have been strong enough to do that are the ones who are winners. Just because many cant or an incapable you're blaming the fans? There's always pressure for instant results, it's the nature of the game - have you missed managers being sacked left right and centre elsewhere?

You could be describing almost any club in the football league there you know. If there isn't progress, managers wont get backing and even if there is progress or a set style of way and a long term plan any managers will still face some criticism from sections of his support - go one a Burnley forum and you'll still find criticism of Dyche and people wanting him out
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It might not always be sensible, but it's the nature of the sport these days and it's a lame excuse for our underperformance this season.
 
Perryqhill said:
So it's the fans and owners problem that the manager of SAFC when faced with pressure isn't strong enough to stand by his own ideas and principles? surely the managers in football who have been up to it and whom have been strong enough to do that are the ones who are winners. Just because most cant or an incapable you're blaming the fans? There's always pressure for instant results, it's the nature of the game - have you missed managers being sacked left right and centre elsewhere?

You could be describing almost any club in the football league there you know. If there isn't progress, managers wont get backing and even if there is progress or a set style of way and a long term plan any managers will still face some criticism from sections of his support - go one a Burnley forum and you'll still find criticism of Dyche and people wanting him out
You must be logged on to see external links


It might not always be sensible, but it's the nature of the sport these days and it's a lame excuse for our underperformance this season.
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I'm not blaming the fans at all, that bit was tongue in cheek. A bit difficult to get across via text mind. Nor am I absolving the manager of any wrongdoing, my point is that the system is currently set up to fail by being heavily weighted on the short term only to be detrimental to our mid to long term.
 
Coeus said:
Don't call me a liar friend.

I agree with O'nein and Ozturk, i differ in opinion as to who is accountable for them.



If its some kind of PR spin then it's not working.
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JR said he is accountable for all of them...SD said JR is accountable for all of them..of course ideas come from different places-thats why clubs employ scouts..and with SAFC it was particularly important ideas came from different places as Ross said he didnt know many players in England.

Coeus said:
I'm not blaming the fans at all, that bit was tongue in cheek. A bit difficult to get across via text mind. Nor am I absolving the manager of any wrongdoing, my point is that the system is currently set up to fail by being heavily weighted on the short term only to be detrimental to our mid to long term.
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putting mroe into the acedemy is long-term, hiring a dof type role rather than just relying on a manager who culd leave at any time is long-term....
 
kildaremackem said:
JR said he is accountable for all of them...SD said JR is accountable for all of them..of course ideas come from different places-thats why clubs employ scouts..and with SAFC it was particularly important ideas came from different places as Ross said he didnt know many players in England.
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If they said that (I've not seen it), that's fine, makes no odds to me not giving Ross credit for O'nein nor not giving him shit for Grigg. The setup was responsible for buying them.

kildaremackem said:
putting mroe into the acedemy is long-term, hiring a dof type role rather than just relying on a manager who culd leave at any time is long-term....
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That's true, but we have done the opposite.
 
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Coeus said:
When so much onus is put upon the short term, a club is destined to fail in the long term imo.

You have a manager, that if he didn't before, will well and truly understand that he is only a month or two poor form away from the fans turning. This means he has to look at the immediate.

This will affect everything, style of play, transfers, confidence.

Similar to the owners, the plan is to build on the momentum for the immediate. Sell off the youngsters for low fee's while panic buying a striker at well over value. I don't doubt that the meaning isn't absolutely correct, it's just backwards imo. When you buy someone over value, you don't half ramp up the pressure so in a way, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Almost all weird decisions can be explained by this onus on the short term. The question is quite rightly being asked of the tactics, what happened to high pressing and why did this cautious approach take over? Well, the decision appears to have been made because we were leaking early goals and we have enough quality in McGeady & formerly Maja to win the game, so keep it safe. This alleviates the possible turning of the fans and certainly stops individual criticism should they lose the ball. We tried to play ourselves out of danger once against Oxford, the first time we had done it in weeks and we received a free kick, had we lost the ball and Oxford scored, there would have been hell to pay for the offender, why bother?

I'll stop prattling on now, but there you have it. A system set up to fail, if you can and do build momentum it will eventually crash and unless the onus, club-wide changes, we will never outperform.

TLDR = Manager is immaterial. Owners and fans fault.
Click to expand...

If that was the case, our manager would be more inclined to play open, expansive football and look to win games. If you knew you only had a short amount of time to win fans over, why would you play negative, boring football with tactics that look to eke out draws? It doesn't really make sense to me.

You don't build momentum by having a season like we've just had. You do the opposite. What you've suggested doesn't alleviate the turning of the fans, it encourages it. What would alleviate fans would be seeing the players actively looking to win the game, counter pressing and then quickly breaking and attacking the opposition. We now almost do the opposite.

We're Sunderland in League One for fuck's sake, we couldn't be in a better position in which we should be looking to win every week, and yet we don't. It's bizarre.
 
AC Mack said:
If that was the case, our manager would be more inclined to play open, expansive football and look to win games. If you knew you only had a short amount of time to win fans over, why would you play negative, boring football with tactics that look to eke out draws? It doesn't really make sense to me.

You don't build momentum by having a season like we've just had. You do the opposite. What you've suggested doesn't alleviate the turning of the fans, it encourages it. What would alleviate fans would be seeing the players actively looking to win the game, counter pressing and then quickly breaking and attacking the opposition. We now almost do the opposite.

We're Sunderland in League One for fuck's sake, we couldn't be in a better position in which we should be looking to win every week, and yet we don't. It's bizarre.
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I understand what you're saying but playing an open expansive game usually results in going a goal behind and the players losing confidence due to the groans. Dick Advocate or Di Canio type downfall.

Whilst playing negative stuff does eventually wear on fans if the end result isnt right, it is a much longer stay without mass hysteria.

We could quite easily have gone down to a club in this league 3 or 4 nil playing an open game at half time which would have resulted in his job.
 
the owners messed up with Grigg to be fair. it went against everything they'd said beforehand and they obviously got excited. However they inherited the Maja situation. I genuinely don't believe we would have gone up if we kept Maja. the team had already settled into it's rut with him part of it.

the January transfer window was a complete shocker on all levels. can only hope it was a blip for the management and they'll learn for the summer

Coeus said:
I understand what you're saying but playing an open expansive game usually results in going a goal behind and the players losing confidence due to the groans. Dick Advocate or Di Canio type downfall.

Whilst playing negative stuff does eventually wear on fans if the end result isnt right, it is a much longer stay without mass hysteria.

We could quite easily have gone down to a club in this league 3 or 4 nil playing an open game at half time which would have resulted in his job.
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he had 60 games to at least show signs he knows how to manage a team.

with the exception of scunny at home (largely due to them giving up before they arrived) and Gills away, I've not seen anything other than some fortunate wins to smile about. look at the opposition, some are shocking yet we make them look like Barcelona .
 
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Coeus said:
I understand what you're saying but playing an open expansive game usually results in going a goal behind and the players losing confidence due to the groans. Dick Advocate or Di Canio type downfall.

Whilst playing negative stuff does eventually wear on fans if the end result isnt right, it is a much longer stay without mass hysteria.

We could quite easily have gone down to a club in this league 3 or 4 nil playing an open game at half time which would have resulted in his job.
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It shouldn't for a team with the biggest budget in the league though, that's my point. I've not seen anyone bar maybe one or two teams that could have put three or four past us in one half, so I don't agree with your assessment. That wouldn't cost someone their job if it was an anomaly.
 
Wood Green Mackem said:
the owners messed up with Grigg to be fair. it went against everything they'd said beforehand and they obviously got excited. However they inherited the Maja situation. I genuinely don't believe we would have gone up if we kept Maja. the team had already settled into it's rut with him part of it.

the January transfer window was a complete shocker on all levels. can only hope it was a blip for the management and they'll learn for the summer


he had 60 games to at least show signs he knows how to manage a team.

with the exception of scunny at home (largely due to them giving up before they arrived) and Gills away, I've not seen anything other than some fortunate wins to smile about. look at the opposition, some are shocking yet we make them look like Barcelona .
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Completely agree, I believe we were playing a different game at the start of the season which involved the 2 you spoke of.

We appear to have changed quite a bit from then, possibly due to conceding early goals and the resulting questions being asked. That along with McGeady getting fit and Maja on form, the safest action in Ross's opinion was to change the tactics.

I'm not backing the manager, I'm just saying it doesn't matter who is manager in the mid to long term. Had we gone up this season or not, even had we gone up as champions it wouldn't matter if we continue to operate as we are.

AC Mack said:
It shouldn't for a team with the biggest budget in the league though, that's my point. I've not seen anyone bar maybe one or two teams that could have put three or four past us in one half, so I don't agree with your assessment. That wouldn't cost someone their job if it was an anomaly.
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I agree it shouldn't be the case for the biggest budget.

Fair enough, a difference of opinion on some teams battering us.

As for more attacking, who would want to leave our defenders one on one.

I think a huge amount of unrest would have occurred at being 4-0 down at half time which would have resulted in the players being scarred at the very least.
 
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I have a feeling some of the board aren't particularly in tune with Sunderland fans yet. They've repeated that since they took over all Sunderland fans have said to them is that they want a team that tries. That's all well and good but finishing fifth and having to spend another season in the third tier is unacceptable.
 
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