Why don’t the 14 clubs in the top flight...

[Boris Bear]

Imagine a championship with:

Sunderland
Newcastle
Aston Villa
Leeds
Everton
West Ham
Wolves
West Brom
Sheffield Wed
Sheffield Utd
Birmingham
Nottingham Forest
Derby County
Middlesbrough
Leicester
Burnley
Stoke
Portsmouth
Southampton
Norwich
Bristol City
Fulham
Cardiff

Would be class.

Sky of course because they're the domestic broadcaster and would be buying the league of the country they're in.
But the value of the deal would diminish massively. The last deal, sky and bt paid less but overseas was higher.
If the keague was to be restructured without the top 6, sky would pay less and overseas would drop loads, because broadcasters would be looking at putting their money into bidding for the European super league.

But as with any league, no matter how high the standard, a 3rd of them will be near the bottom a 3rd mid table a 3rd will be up the top.
This is why I think it won't happen. Somebody like Bayern, or Juventus who've dominated their league and won 7 and 8 titles in a row in their league might not like it finishing 8th or 9th.
However, why would our top 6 be given entry automatically but not 6 from spain and Germany?
It's not feasible really.
Look at Italy. Probably want Juventus, Milan, Inter and arguably Napoli or Roma, then Bayern and Dortmund, then Atletico Madrid, Real Madrid, Barcelona, PSG would want in, so from Europe's top 5 leagues the balance isn't evenly spread assuming our top 6 entered. Because you could have Sevilla or Bilbao or Valencia make a legit argument they deserve to be in ahead of Spurs for example.
Then why wouldn't a European giant like Porto or Ajax be allowed in as well.
It's unworkable, as our current top 6 wouldn't all get in, so if 4 left, the remaining 2 would dominate.

Sky would pay more for European football than a competition that most of their customers have a vested interest in?

 

[The Muffin Man]

Who are there to just be cannon fodder for the “big six” demand change? If they refuse tell them to fuck off and play each other every week.

I’m sick of how boring football is.

Top 6 in England all capable of doing each other damage and are incredibly strong..........Look at Germany, France, Spain, Scotland, Holland and the leagues are foregone conclusions with one team dominating in most of them and at most 2.

 

[Ambivalent Dave]

If it’s so bad now, how come it’s decades since the last time there was the same score in a cup final?

 

[What A Waster]

The top 6 nonsense is created by shithouses in the media. It used to be the big 4 but because it was penetrated by other clubs (proving it isn't impossible) they decided to expand it from 4 to 6 rather than suggest that a club like Man Utd or Arsenal weren't one of the bigs. Sick of hearing it used

Absolutely spot on. Have said this many times. Late 90s it was a big two. Arsenal and Man United. Then Liverpool re-emerged as contenders so it was a big three (and traditionally accurate). But Chelsea and Leeds were doing well. The champions league places went to 4 teams from 01/02. Abramovich came along in 03, and from 03/04 to 08/09 the top 4 was the same 4 teams in a different order. The birth of the big 4.
Apart from 04/05 when Liverpool finished 5th but won the CL anyway.
Then Man City got money and it was big 5. Tottenham started doing well regularly so it was 6.
If Leicester had sustained it for a few seasons, winning the league then still a top 4 after that, we'd be on about the big 7 now.

Imagine a championship with:

Sunderland
Newcastle
Aston Villa
Leeds
Everton
West Ham
Wolves
West Brom
Sheffield Wed
Sheffield Utd
Birmingham
Nottingham Forest
Derby County
Middlesbrough
Leicester
Burnley
Stoke
Portsmouth
Southampton
Norwich
Bristol City
Fulham
Cardiff

Would be class.


Sky would pay more for European football than a competition that most of their customers have a vested interest in?

No. I never said that. They'd pay heavily for the european one, to the detriment of the domestic one. They've already paid less on the last tv deal than on the one before that. The only reason its still equally valuable is that the foreign rights were sold for more.
The foreign packages would drop massively.

 

[keybuk]

I've got BT Sport. I've not watched 95% of the CL or Europa games they've shown. I don't bother much watching most of the PL games on Sky either.

If the top six pissed off there's no way I'd be forking out a fortune to watch whatever's left because Sky/BT have hoovered that up as well.

The 5 leading clubs for the PL breakaway were the big 5 of Liverpool, Everton, Arsenal, Spurs and Man United. All very succesful clubs apart from Spurs.

Not much changes really

What has changed is you can't see Villa/Forest/Derby/Everton winning the league now. Nor can you see the likes of Ipswich, Watford, Southampton, West Ham etc coming close. The richer clubs hoovering up talent, paying fortunes for players leaving the rest to pick the bones is where it has definitely turned. I'll say now that if we had all the riches and were winning things I wouldn't give a toss about the state of the league. It is blindingly obvious that unless some check is put on the amount of money clubs spend the league will become tedious and eventually a turn off for TV.

 

[Chewit]

No chance.

As it is the club’s get a shit ton of tv money because the likes of City and Liverpool are in that league. If they go then so does the cash.

Hostages to fortune

 

[What A Waster]

I've got BT Sport. I've not watched 95% of the CL or Europa games they've shown. I don't bother much watching most of the PL games on Sky either.

If the top six pissed off there's no way I'd be forking out a fortune to watch whatever's left because Sky/BT have hoovered that up as well.

What has changed is you can't see Villa/Forest/Derby/Everton winning the league now. Nor can you see the likes of Ipswich, Watford, Southampton, West Ham etc coming close. The richer clubs hoovering up talent, paying fortunes for players leaving the rest to pick the bones is where it has definitely turned. I'll say now that if we had all the riches and were winning things I wouldn't give a toss about the state of the league. It is blindingly obvious that unless some check is put on the amount of money clubs spend the league will become tedious and eventually a turn off for TV.

Probably the same thing being said for 20 odd years though, that "the bubble will burst".
The thing that will keep it going is the blind loyalty of football fans.
Don't get me wrong, I still think it's weird how 4th place is coveted more than a cup win, but it's not as bad as people make out.
In the 90s did somebody like Sheff Wed, Southampton or Everton ever have a chance of winning the league?
Newcastle went close after throwing money at it, what we spent at the time was a lot. Same as Blackburn. Chelsea had to spend to do it, as did Man City.
The 60s and 70s were different, tv deal not in play and gate receipts shared.
Still had a dominant Liverpool though, and Clough was still spending a bit at forest and derby.

 

[Deleted member 6694]

Btw I think the top 6 can be broken into next season, although If it doesn’t this coming season it won’t be for a long, long time time ......

No chance of that happening next season as the gap between top 6 has progressively been getting bigger in the last few seasons. The 'top 6' have been in the top 6 for 4 seasons in a row now and the gap this season between 6th and 7th was 11 points. It was actually 17 points on the 15th April after most teams had played 33/34 games so the top 6 were getting a point more every 2 games!

11v11 league table generator

The gap only dropped because Man Utd had a brain fart the last few games. In 2017-18 the gap was 9 points, 2016-17 it was 8 points, 2015-16 it was 3 points. So it's increased the last 3 seasons and next season I reckon it will be 15 points at least if the teams spend wisely.

Some will say Leicester in 2014-15 but that wasn't just down to Leicester having a great season as it was due to the top teams all having an off season. I don't think a Leicester will happen again in the near future given the spending power of the teams now is huge compared to 5 years ago so they'll just get stronger and have more squad depth also.

The revenue in 2017-18 of the lowest team of the top 6 as Spurs with £428 million. This was double the team with the 7th largest revenue which was Everton with £212 million.

Newcastle join Man United, Liverpool and Chelsea in the Deloitte Money League

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Look at the commercial income also with the top clubs as it dwarfs the other Premier League clubs. This last season the money gap will be even bigger as will next season, especially if Arsenal win the Europa League and get into Champions League and Spurs will rocket up given the prices of the new stadium season tickets.

This is why football is shite in general now due to the financial clout getting bigger season upon season with the big clubs. It will take some doing to catch up to the top 6 and even if a team did it's unlikely they'll stay there the next season.

 

[sunderpitt]

Everything in US sport is designed to try to ensure competition is as even as possible, which is remarkable in the home of dog-eat-dog capitalism. Perhaps it's because they realise the competition is an important part of a league. So the TV money is split evenly, there's a salary cap, and the weakest teams get first picks in the college draft. There's no reason why the first two of those couldn't be tried here.

My brother who has lived in the states for years has said something similar. Of course those teams who have the biggest budgets more often than not win
He has argued fo Sunderland and others to compete on a level playing field, the richest owner cannot stack the deck as it were.

 

[SAFC11]

Football has always been the same, jilust the factor of cash has changed. Someone is always cannon fodder and some one will always try to buy titles, with or without the top 6. Plus it would mean we would never really winthe league so no difference there. The way tv money is shared should be done better and filtered through leagues and grass roots better

 

[The warthog]

Strange time to bring this up. We've just seen two of the best Champions League semi finals, and there's four English teams contesting the two European Cup finals. None of whom are the side who just won the treble.

We've just seen a superb title race, not to mention some brilliant play offs, including Sunderland going back to Wembley.

But aye, football is boring.

It’s not really a strange time to mention it after today’s result

 

[Deleted member 6694]

Oops, I fucked up my years in the last post as I said Leicester was in 2014-15 but it was the season after!

The top 6 nonsense is created by shithouses in the media. It used to be the big 4 but because it was penetrated by other clubs (proving it isn't impossible) they decided to expand it from 4 to 6 rather than suggest that a club like Man Utd or Arsenal weren't one of the bigs. Sick of hearing it used

Absolutely spot on. Have said this many times. Late 90s it was a big two. Arsenal and Man United. Then Liverpool re-emerged as contenders so it was a big three (and traditionally accurate). But Chelsea and Leeds were doing well.

No it isn't spot on as it expanded from the big 4 who were Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool as they finished top 4 from seasons 2005-6 to 2008-9. Then Spurs and Man City appeared in 4th and 5th respectively in 2009-10 as Liverpool had an off season. As you can see in the link below, soon after Man City were classed as the 5th big team and they eventually won the league 7 years ago in 2011-12.

The Premier League's Big 4 Officially Welcomes Manchester City As a Member

Now Spurs have regularly been finishing high and though not winning the league, they are now classed as one of the big 6. In the last 4 seasons, they've finished 3rd, 2nd, 2nd and 4th. They actually finished in the top 5 in 9 of the last the 10 seasons, finishing 6th in the other, so generating huge revenues from European ventures.

Apart from Leicester in 2015-6 how many teams, not including the current big 6, do you think have qualified for Champions League since 2005-6? The answer is none as Everton last did it in 2004-5 and the Mags did it 2 seasons in 2001-3. In fact only 1 more team in the last 20 years has qualified for Champions League and that was Leeds in 1999-2000 so all the rest of the Champions League money has been going to 1 of the big 6.

So looking overall at the current revenue/finances of these clubs, the recent finishing positions and progressively increasing points gap shows they are indeed the 'big 6'. There's no way Leicester would have maintained their position from 2015-16 to compete as they simply didn't have the spending/attraction power like the other 6. This below is the revenue the season after Leicester won it. Aye they got some wedge from their Champions League venture but look at the difference between the rest of the league.

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Now look again at the graph in my last post above showing the 2017-18 revenues as the top 6 were all double everyone else. This season's revenue gap between the top 6 and the rest will be even greater no doubt. Next season it will be even more given the success of the 4 teams this season in Europe as Man Utd and Man City will be up there regardless.

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Given the money these 6 clubs now generate compared to other teams then unless they go out and constantly buy donkeys for 10's of millions then it's going to be the big 6 for a few years yet. This is part of the reason why they are called the big 6 as they are exactly that financially and every year that gap will grow bigger. That is until they just create the European Super League once the big boys from each European league get sick of sharing the money with the cannon fodder of their relative leagues. There possibly won't be 6 from England so 1 or 2 may well miss out but it depends if they can buy their way in.

Bored now so fuck this shite!

 

[OohBaldyBally]

Who are there to just be cannon fodder for the “big six” demand change? If they refuse tell them to fuck off and play each other every week.

I’m sick of how boring football is.

Tell the big six to stop being so good?

 

[What A Waster]

Oops, I fucked up my years in the last post as I said Leicester was in 2014-15 but it was the season after!



No it isn't spot on as it expanded from the big 4 who were Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool as they finished top 4 from seasons 2005-6 to 2008-9. Then Spurs and Man City appeared in 4th and 5th respectively in 2009-10 as Liverpool had an off season. As you can see in the link below, soon after Man City were classed as the 5th big team and they eventually won the league 7 years ago in 2011-12.

The Premier League's Big 4 Officially Welcomes Manchester City As a Member

Now Spurs have regularly been finishing high and though not winning the league, they are now classed as one of the big 6. In the last 4 seasons, they've finished 3rd, 2nd, 2nd and 4th. They actually finished in the top 5 in 9 of the last the 10 seasons, finishing 6th in the other, so generating huge revenues from European ventures.

Apart from Leicester in 2015-6 how many teams, not including the current big 6, do you think have qualified for Champions League since 2005-6? The answer is none as Everton last did it in 2004-5 and the Mags did it 2 seasons in 2001-3. In fact only 1 more team in the last 20 years has qualified for Champions League and that was Leeds in 1999-2000 so all the rest of the Champions League money has been going to 1 of the big 6.

So looking overall at the current revenue/finances of these clubs, the recent finishing positions and progressively increasing points gap shows they are indeed the 'big 6'. There's no way Leicester would have maintained their position from 2015-16 to compete as they simply didn't have the spending/attraction power like the other 6. This below is the revenue the season after Leicester won it. Aye they got some wedge from their Champions League venture but look at the difference between the rest of the league.

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Now look again at the graph in my last post above showing the 2017-18 revenues as the top 6 were all double everyone else. This season's revenue gap between the top 6 and the rest will be even greater no doubt. Next season it will be even more given the success of the 4 teams this season in Europe as Man Utd and Man City will be up there regardless.

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Given the money these 6 clubs now generate compared to other teams then unless they go out and constantly buy donkeys for 10's of millions then it's going to be the big 6 for a few years yet. This is part of the reason why they are called the big 6 as they are exactly that financially and every year that gap will grow bigger. That is until they just create the European Super League once the big boys from each European league get sick of sharing the money with the cannon fodder of their relative leagues. There possibly won't be 6 from England so 1 or 2 may well miss out but it depends if they can buy their way in.

Bored now so fuck this shite!

Seems like you ignored the last half of my post that you quoted to then make the same point but with loads more effort

 

[LiverBird]

The bottom team gets £100m.

Fulham spunked their money on trash.

How about the 14 teams actually step up and stop being such pussys when they come up against a "top 6 team" ?

Leicester showed its possible but most teams don't have the balls to try and be clever, they just play it safe to get that PL jackpot

 

[Born Never Asked]

Imagine a championship with:

Sunderland
Newcastle
Aston Villa
Leeds
Everton
West Ham
Wolves
West Brom
Sheffield Wed
Sheffield Utd
Birmingham
Nottingham Forest
Derby County
Middlesbrough
Leicester
Burnley
Stoke
Portsmouth
Southampton
Norwich
Bristol City
Fulham
Cardiff

Would be class.


Sky would pay more for European football than a competition that most of their customers have a vested interest in?

Love the irony of Everton being so heavily influential in creating Premier football now staring outside the window looking lovingly but despairingly at the goods no longer available to them. They fucked English football so fans could say how class playing in a league with Birmingham or Bristol City would be class

 

[Boris Bear]

Love the irony of Everton being so heavily influential in creating Premier football now staring outside the window looking lovingly but despairingly at the goods no longer available to them. They fucked English football so fans could say how class playing in a league with Birmingham or Bristol City would be class

They didn’t

 

[What A Waster]

The bottom team gets £100m.

Fulham spunked their money on trash.

How about the 14 teams actually step up and stop being such pussys when they come up against a "top 6 team" ?

Leicester showed its possible but most teams don't have the balls to try and be clever, they just play it safe to get that PL jackpot

Agree with this. Up to everybody else to catch up. Raise the standards.
If a team is good, be better than them. That's how you win.
Same goes for any sport. To be the best you've got to beat the best.
There's always a way.
Greece won the euros and Valencia won two spanish leagues playing 1 up front and a double 6. Then everybody done it. So teams countered that by ditching 4 4 2, and so it goes.

 

[Chewit]

Probably the same thing being said for 20 odd years though, that "the bubble will burst".
The thing that will keep it going is the blind loyalty of football fans.
Don't get me wrong, I still think it's weird how 4th place is coveted more than a cup win, but it's not as bad as people make out.
In the 90s did somebody like Sheff Wed, Southampton or Everton ever have a chance of winning the league?
Newcastle went close after throwing money at it, what we spent at the time was a lot. Same as Blackburn. Chelsea had to spend to do it, as did Man City.
The 60s and 70s were different, tv deal not in play and gate receipts shared.
Still had a dominant Liverpool though, and Clough was still spending a bit at forest and derby.

Actually it’s not the blind loyalty of football fans in this country. It’s the appeal of the premiership world wide. I don’t think many realise that the following for it and the major teams is off the scale. That’s where the money comes from. Take it away and the premier is no different to any other European league of note

 

[Deleted member 6694]

Seems like you ignored the last half of my post that you quoted to then make the same point but with loads more effort

Aye I just replied to the spot on bit as you see in the beginning of my post!

That's because SmellyMags said "The top 6 nonsense is created by shithouses in the media. It used to be the big 4 but because it was penetrated by other clubs (proving it isn't impossible) they decided to expand it from 4 to 6 rather than suggest that a club like Man Utd or Arsenal weren't one of the bigs." to which you replied "Spot on" which in fact it isn't at all, it's fact given the revenue these clubs now pull in comparison the rest which was at least double last season with over a £200 million gap!

The bottom team gets £100m.

Fulham spunked their money on trash.

How about the 14 teams actually step up and stop being such pussys when they come up against a "top 6 team" ?

Leicester showed its possible but most teams don't have the balls to try and be clever, they just play it safe to get that PL jackpot

Leicester was a freak season man and it won't be happening again too soon as the financial clout is massive now.

Aye the bottom team get £100m but the top 6 get 100's of millions in other revenue. Look at how Spurs revenue has doubled in the last 4 seasons.

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As I said, the top 6 now got double what any other team got and this will increase this season and next. It's not all about Premier League money as the top 6 generate millions from gate receipts, merchandising, sponsorship, european football, extra TV money etc etc.

This is matchday revenue from 2016-17 and given Spurs new stadium then the gap is going to be huge next season as the top 6 will probably double any of the other teams.

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This is the commercial revenue from 2016-17 and seeing as Spurs will be higher now then they'll probably be £100 million ahead of the rest who may at a push reach £40 million so 3 times as much! It's f***ing massive now the financial clout that these 6 teams have, hence the 'big 6' as that's exactly what they are now. Sadly it will continue to grow and the gulf between the top 6 and the rest will get bigger and bigger each season and they'll spend more on just 1 player than any other team spend in a season of transfers!