A system set up to fail

[ontap]

I understand we wanted Grigg, however paying whatever the selling club wanted with minutes to spare is what I am categorising a panic buy.

I said the youth players for low fee's, I did not mean Maja, I have no problem with the difficulties that instance provided.



So we disagree on being able to bid for players under 17 then. Can't find anything categorical on google.

You have absolutely no proof we paid what wigan were asking , you just made that up.

 

[Teejay]

B

When so much onus is put upon the short term, a club is destined to fail in the long term imo.

You have a manager, that if he didn't before, will well and truly understand that he is only a month or two poor form away from the fans turning. This means he has to look at the immediate.

This will affect everything, style of play, transfers, confidence.

Similar to the owners, the plan is to build on the momentum for the immediate. Sell off the youngsters for low fee's while panic buying a striker at well over value. I don't doubt that the meaning isn't absolutely correct, it's just backwards imo. When you buy someone over value, you don't half ramp up the pressure so in a way, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Almost all weird decisions can be explained by this onus on the short term. The question is quite rightly being asked of the tactics, what happened to high pressing and why did this cautious approach take over? Well, the decision appears to have been made because we were leaking early goals and we have enough quality in McGeady & formerly Maja to win the game, so keep it safe. This alleviates the possible turning of the fans and certainly stops individual criticism should they lose the ball. We tried to play ourselves out of danger once against Oxford, the first time we had done it in weeks and we received a free kick, had we lost the ball and Oxford scored, there would have been hell to pay for the offender, why bother?

I'll stop prattling on now, but there you have it. A system set up to fail, if you can and do build momentum it will eventually crash and unless the onus, club-wide changes, we will never outperform.

TLDR = Manager is immaterial. Owners and fans fault.

Bit of a rambling post, but makes a lot of sense. Add in the anxiety permeating from fans to players, and it really makes no sense to be anything other than patient just now.

 

[Coeus]

B

Bit of a rambling post, but makes a lot of sense. Add in the anxiety permeating from fans to players, and it really makes no sense to be anything other than patient just now.

Thanks mate, I don't think I accurately portrayed what I tried but if someone got the gist then I think it was worth it.

 

[molthemackem]

More excuses. You've seen the standard in the league yourself, we aren't playing well it's as simple as that and I don't think it has anything to do with short-termism.

In the short-term we do need to get out of this league from a financial aspect. We're Sunderland in league one mate, we should be challenging for promotion, which we are.

Fans are behind Ross and the players, but performances still need to improve.

Unfortunately, the performances now are worse than at the beginning of the season. i think one point the op touched on is relevant that is the leaking of goals. This,I can understand if we are attacking teams but these last few performances,home and away where we have barely registered a shot on goal are extremely worrying. I'm sure that Jack knows that too but the main problem all season is none of our players attack crosses coming into the box from the wing areas. As for the full backs trying to prevent these, well we have all seen the outcome of their attempts. I said before the season started this would not be a cakewalk as some suggested and that there were better set up teams in the league who have had steady away squads for a couple of years, Luton ,Barnsley and Portsmouth spring to mind. I thought we might make the play offs but on current form and until we learn to defend properly, something the manager should be drilling into the squad, results like these will continue the rest of the season. The performance now bear no resemblance to those at the beginning of the season.

 

[ScottishMack]

“Sell off the youngsters for low fee's while panic buying a striker at well over value.”

You seriously think that was the plan?

You’ve undermined your entire post there mate.

You’ve proved his point. Of course it wasn’t the plan, it’s short term reactionism, which is more often than not detrimental to long term planning and success.

 

[dcl0sc]

If the player wanted to leave, then there is nothing we could have done to stop them, I understand this. I'm just not sure that we did all we could to keep them, especially as Stephensons dad said we didn't appear to want to keep them due to the fee.

Two sides to every story marra.... You are being very naive to simply assume the club had no desire to keep our talented young players...

 

[wadya]

When so much onus is put upon the short term, a club is destined to fail in the long term imo.

You have a manager, that if he didn't before, will well and truly understand that he is only a month or two poor form away from the fans turning. This means he has to look at the immediate.

This will affect everything, style of play, transfers, confidence.

Similar to the owners, the plan is to build on the momentum for the immediate. Sell off the youngsters for low fee's while panic buying a striker at well over value. I don't doubt that the meaning isn't absolutely correct, it's just backwards imo. When you buy someone over value, you don't half ramp up the pressure so in a way, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Almost all weird decisions can be explained by this onus on the short term. The question is quite rightly being asked of the tactics, what happened to high pressing and why did this cautious approach take over? Well, the decision appears to have been made because we were leaking early goals and we have enough quality in McGeady & formerly Maja to win the game, so keep it safe. This alleviates the possible turning of the fans and certainly stops individual criticism should they lose the ball. We tried to play ourselves out of danger once against Oxford, the first time we had done it in weeks and we received a free kick, had we lost the ball and Oxford scored, there would have been hell to pay for the offender, why bother?

I'll stop prattling on now, but there you have it. A system set up to fail, if you can and do build momentum it will eventually crash and unless the onus, club-wide changes, we will never outperform.

TLDR = Manager is immaterial. Owners and fans fault.

If Grigg scores 10 or more goals this season and we get promoted would u not agree 4 mill is good money

 

[Far Tibetan Mountain]

We aren't "failing", for goodness sake. We just aren't doing as well as we should be.

Failing would be sitting in 12th place, not 9 points off the top with 3 games in hand!

We're 11 points off the top. Valid point otherwise.

 

[Coeus]

Two sides to every story marra.... You are being very naive to simply assume the club had no desire to keep our talented young players...

I'm not sure I am, I have listened to what both sides have had to say and made my opinion, what more could I do?

Of course, there are two sides, I could be completely wrong but unless anyone can tell me why in a way I understand, why would I think otherwise?

If Grigg scores 10 or more goals this season and we get promoted would u not agree 4 mill is good money

It's a tricky line mate, so many variables. It's not the player nor fee that I am really trying to pick out, its the mentality behind it, if that makes sense?

 

[Ilios]

I'm not sure I am, I have listened to what both sides have had to say and made my opinion, what more could I do?

Of course, there are two sides, I could be completely wrong but unless anyone can tell me why in a way I understand, why would I think otherwise?



It's a tricky line mate, so many variables. It's not the player nor fee that I am really trying to pick out, its the mentality behind it, if that makes sense?

Because you're looking at it entirely back to front. You have decided that you're correct until somebody shows you you're wrong. That's a fallacy, because you don't need to be proven wrong, you need to show that you're right.

You can look at the FA rules on academy players. You can google the various transfer embargos and sanctions placed upon Real Madrid, Barca, Atletico, Man City, Liverpool and Chelsea over the last 2 or 3 years for doing similar things you are suggesting.

 

[Coeus]

Because you're looking at it entirely back to front. You have decided that you're correct until somebody shows you you're wrong. That's a fallacy, because you don't need to be proven wrong, you need to show that you're right.

You can look at the FA rules on academy players. You can google the various transfer embargos and sanctions placed upon Real Madrid, Barca, Atletico, Man City, Liverpool and Chelsea over the last 2 or 3 years for doing similar things you are suggesting.

I'm absolutely open to other opinions and am purely offering mine. I'm not sure either side can be proven when talking about generalisations.

As for the embargo's I believe it was because they broke a specific rule, not a rule that states you are not able to provide a transfer bid for a under 17-year-old player.

As far as I am aware, I haven't asked anyone to prove their opinion?

 

[Sidewinder2]

We aren't "failing", for goodness sake. We just aren't doing as well as we should be.

Failing would be sitting in 12th place, not 9 points off the top with 3 games in hand!

We're 11 points of top but can see what you mean.

However Ross said anything other than promotion this season is failure, his words not mine.

 

[thecloughywobble]

I take your point, Coeus, la. I think it probably applies to most professional football teams. In fact it applies to party politics (certainly in the UK) & many so called developed societies. Insatiable desire for instant gratification means no advance planning, no room for error, no second chances, no grey areas, everything polarised, everyone living on the edge of their nerves, knowing the Sword of Damocles is suspended by the slenderest of threads. Not a very clever state of affairs, in my opinion.
I've been planning to gan fer a shite, I've given it careful consideration & I think it's time....

 

[Coeus]

I take your point, Coeus, la. I think it probably applies to most professional football teams. In fact it applies to party politics (certainly in the UK) & many so called developed societies. Insatiable desire for instant gratification means no advance planning, no room for error, no second chances, no grey areas, everything polarised, everyone living on the edge of their nerves, knowing the Sword of Damocles is suspended by the slenderest of threads. Not a very clever state of affairs, in my opinion.
I've been planning to gan fer a shite, I've given it careful consideration & I think it's time....

Absolutely my point and the society comment may explain some fan pressure. Appears counterproductive to me.

 

[thecloughywobble]

Absolutely my point and the society comment may explain some fan pressure. Appears counterproductive to me.

My shite was carefully planned, well executed & the slight element of delayed gratification made it all the more enjoyable. Many would have simply shat themselves at the first nip then complained about the mess, hoyed their soiled hoggers owa the fence & blamed their neighbour....

 

[xmfd]

We aren't "failing", for goodness sake. We just aren't doing as well as we should be.

Failing would be sitting in 12th place, not 9 points off the top with 3 games in hand!

It's looking like Playoffs if we don't change something. Failure would be not going up at the end of the season.
I haven't lost hope that we'll turn the corner, but we need to start playing better soon.

 

[Northumberland Rocks]

When so much onus is put upon the short term, a club is destined to fail in the long term imo.

You have a manager, that if he didn't before, will well and truly understand that he is only a month or two poor form away from the fans turning. This means he has to look at the immediate.

This will affect everything, style of play, transfers, confidence.

Similar to the owners, the plan is to build on the momentum for the immediate. Sell off the youngsters for low fee's while panic buying a striker at well over value. I don't doubt that the meaning isn't absolutely correct, it's just backwards imo. When you buy someone over value, you don't half ramp up the pressure so in a way, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Almost all weird decisions can be explained by this onus on the short term. The question is quite rightly being asked of the tactics, what happened to high pressing and why did this cautious approach take over? Well, the decision appears to have been made because we were leaking early goals and we have enough quality in McGeady & formerly Maja to win the game, so keep it safe. This alleviates the possible turning of the fans and certainly stops individual criticism should they lose the ball. We tried to play ourselves out of danger once against Oxford, the first time we had done it in weeks and we received a free kick, had we lost the ball and Oxford scored, there would have been hell to pay for the offender, why bother?

I'll stop prattling on now, but there you have it. A system set up to fail, if you can and do build momentum it will eventually crash and unless the onus, club-wide changes, we will never outperform.

TLDR = Manager is immaterial. Owners and fans fault.

Im fully behind the Club, the new owners and Ross - I want the lad to be a success here in the long term. However, we are quite right to criticise the tactics at the moment because we should be doing way better with the players at our disposal.

Playing 1 striker up front with no support against teams from the bottom of Div3, for Sunderland, is not good enough frankly.

 

[Coeus]

My shite was carefully planned, well executed & the slight element of delayed gratification made it all the more enjoyable. Many would have simply shat themselves at the first nip then complained about the mess, hoyed their soiled hoggers owa the fence & blamed their neighbour....

One can only blame thy neighbour for so long until all of our gardens are ruined.

 

[Tin Soldier]

Two sides to every story marra.... You are being very naive to simply assume the club had no desire to keep our talented young players...

Don't think it's down to no desire think it's more financial than anything else

 

[Coeus]

Im fully behind the Club, the new owners and Ross - I want the lad to be a success here in the long term. However, we are quite right to criticise the tactics at the moment because we should be doing way better with the players at our disposal.

Playing 1 striker up front with no support against teams from the bottom of Div3, for Sunderland, is not good enough frankly.

I understand that mate, my argument isn't with the fans ramping up so quickly.

My point is more general, along the lines of us being counterproductive in the decisions we make, every essence of the club is affected by not acknowledging the issue.

If I give an example, the owners buys a player because he fears the backlash from fans, momentum will be lost and weighs up other variables. Said player bought was selected on the basis of appeasing fans as opposed to strategic thinking. He later becomes a reason for increased pressure due to not performing in the manner of a price tag and unavailable to restructure squad due to wages.

My thinking means that any manager is will fail due to every decision being made is done so for the wrong reasons.