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England v India 4th Test

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smoker said:
Anyone who doesn't have concerns about the state of this team needs to give their head a wobble.
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Yes. The two main questions remain.

1) How do we unearth at least two, if not three, top order batsmen.

2) Do we really have an attack that can take 20 wickets abroad?

Obviously we can't answer 2) here. Curran has been brought on and Moeen has bowled well again. Not sure either is the answer to 2) but Moeen has altered his technique and had some heavy tutoring from Saqlain, and Curran is young enough to get the extra pace.

Question 1) is chronic.

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Comeback_Kenwyne said:
Yes. The two main questions remain.

1) How do we unearth at least two, if not three, top order batsmen.

2) Do we really have an attack that can take 20 wickets abroad?

Obviously we can't answer 2) here. Curran has been brought on and Moeen has bowled well again. Not sure either is the answer to 2) but Moeen has altered his technique and had some heavy tutoring from Saqlain, and Curran is young enough to get the extra pace.

Question 1) is chronic.

[
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Spot on.

I think the trouble with Ali is he relies a lot on the top spinner and unexpected bounce to take wickets. In India that's staying low and in Australia it's bouncing over. He needs to work with Mushtaq to augment his repertoire. Also a massive confidence player, works best when not under pressure

The Rat said:
There are concerns but it’s been tough conditions and we’ve won again

Beat South Africa last year too
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Outbowled India and made the right toss call.

Batting wise we were pretty awful. 86/6
 
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smoker said:
Spot on.

I think the trouble with Ali is he relies a lot on the top spinner and unexpected bounce to take wickets. In India that's staying low and in Australia it's bouncing over. He needs to work with Mushtaq to augment his repertoire. Also a massive confidence player, works best when not under pressure


Outbowled India and made the right toss call.

Batting wise we were pretty awful. 86/6
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That's why this match gives me confidence though. Here, we had Ashwin over relying on the top spinners and struggling, whereas Moeen had more control, better variance of pace and cleverer use of the rough to generate more turn. He bowled differently, took his wickets differently. Spinning Kohli and Rahane out when set is impressive - this is the best team in the world on surfaces like that today. The pressure thing is a concern.

We have to remember he only started as a spinner when he was about 23-24. He has fewer overs in his belt, so he is still improving. Mustaq has done well with him so far.
 
Comeback_Kenwyne said:
Yes. The two main questions remain.

1) How do we unearth at least two, if not three, top order batsmen.

2) Do we really have an attack that can take 20 wickets abroad?

Obviously we can't answer 2) here. Curran has been brought on and Moeen has bowled well again. Not sure either is the answer to 2) but Moeen has altered his technique and had some heavy tutoring from Saqlain, and Curran is young enough to get the extra pace.

Question 1) is chronic.

[
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Question 2 is a doozy (apologies).

It's always going to be difficult because the ball and local conditions here aren't replicated abroad. I did think the problems in Australia started with the bowling and Australia being able to score big put pressure on our batting.

Can we justify taking Anderson? Broad's pace is down. Woakes and Stokes are probably our fastest bowlers - don't know about where young Curran fits in - but how much bowling can Stokes manage on his dodgy knee.

For me there'll be a question mark against Anderson but I'd take Broad. I'd also take Ali and Leach, a SLA is good to have.

Windies pitches these days are apparently spin friendly. What are they like for 81/82 mph swing bowlers?
 
Bri said:
Question 2 is a doozy (apologies).

It's always going to be difficult because the ball and local conditions here aren't replicated abroad. I did think the problems in Australia started with the bowling and Australia being able to score big put pressure on our batting.

Can we justify taking Anderson? Broad's pace is down. Woakes and Stokes are probably our fastest bowlers - don't know about where young Curran fits in - but how much bowling can Stokes manage on his dodgy knee.

For me there'll be a question mark against Anderson but I'd take Broad. I'd also take Ali and Leach, a SLA is good to have.

Windies pitches these days are apparently spin friendly. What are they like for 81/82 mph swing bowlers?
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Question mark against Anderson? I've heard it all now.

Question 2 is of course the toughest one to answer. Nobody in test cricket has the answers currently - though the question changes. For teams coming here it's about can they swing and play swing effectively. If we want to elevate ourselves, this is our version.
 
Comeback_Kenwyne said:
Yes. The two main questions remain.

1) How do we unearth at least two, if not three, top order batsmen.

2) Do we really have an attack that can take 20 wickets abroad?

Obviously we can't answer 2) here. Curran has been brought on and Moeen has bowled well again. Not sure either is the answer to 2) but Moeen has altered his technique and had some heavy tutoring from Saqlain, and Curran is young enough to get the extra pace.

Question 1) is chronic.

[
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1) Fuck knows where they are. Its just taking a punt really. The Sri Lanka series should have been made for Hameed if he wasn't averaging 9 in first class cricket over the last 2 years :oops: Burns deserves a shot put ironically Hildreth has played all his cricket batting at 4 which means playing someone else out of position. Vince and Malan will come back into the reckoning. The feeling with Malan is that he has the qualities on pitches abroad.

2) I don't think anything has changed to be honest. We are a very good team at home and I don't think we have the armory to be much improved away from home. Opposition batsmen are better and more patient than us on flat pitches to pile up massive scores and we have essentially the same bowlers that always struggle on flat pitches.
 
CollingwoodFTM said:
I’m stopping, just in case.

Anyway, has there been a replay with the final wicket which shows whether it would have hit or not? I reckon it was going down leg.
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It was going miles down. Looked not out with the eye and on ball-tracking wasn't even umpires call.

Evens it up for when we had Kohli for fifteen.
 
I just think people need to look at England more positively, and that includes fans, selectors, pundits

I’ve never seen so many talented genuine all rounders, the possibilities of the side are endless

Stokes can score a nearly run a ball 200, bowl 90mph and swing it both ways

Curran can swing the new ball and could be a top 6 player

Bairstow can keep wicket perfectly and score 5 test 100s

Ali can score test 100s and take 9 wickets in a match

Woakes can take the new ball in England and score 100s

That’s absolutely fuckin ridiculous

Be positive, let them play down the order and let’s work harder to identify a top 3. Keep trying different players, send young batsman abroad to bat and bat
 
The Rat said:
I just think people need to look at England more positively, and that includes fans, selectors, pundits

I’ve never seen so many talented genuine all rounders, the possibilities of the side are endless

Stokes can score a nearly run a ball 200, bowl 90mph and swing it both ways

Curran can swing the new ball and could be a top 6 player

Bairstow can keep wicket perfectly and score 5 test 100s

Ali can score test 100s and take 9 wickets in a match

Woakes can take the new ball in England and score 100s

That’s absolutely fuckin ridiculous

Be positive, let them play down the order and let’s work harder to identify a top 3. Keep trying different players, send young batsman abroad to bat and bat
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A lot of what you have said are one offs though
 
The Rat said:
There are concerns but it’s been tough conditions and we’ve won again

Beat South Africa last year too
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I love the positivity but as talented as many of our players are they are still pretty inept overseas against quality opposition. In recent times we have won 4 test matches overseas out of the last 32. This includes failing to win series abroad against the likes of Bangladesh and WI and getting hammered against Pak. In the last 6 years we have had one series win, a good one against a SA side that were in a bit of turmoil to be fair.

As talented as we are - we still don't have the pace or the quality spin to succeed abroad and get 20 wickets in games on flat surfaces often enough. Great team at home but this series has proven nothing new.
 
rentaghost said:
I love the positivity but as talented as many of our players are they are still pretty inept overseas against quality opposition. In recent times we have won 4 test matches overseas out of the last 32. This includes failing to win series abroad against the likes of Bangladesh and WI and getting hammered against Pak. In the last 6 years we have had one series win, a good one against a SA side that were in a bit of turmoil to be fair.

As talented as we are - we still don't have the pace or the quality spin to succeed abroad and get 20 wickets in games on flat surfaces often enough. Great team at home but this series has proven nothing new.
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Most are mate, India are supposedly the best side in the world, but can't win a series outside of Asia.

Its proved we are a decent side, winning at home is just as important as winning away
 
Liverpool Beachball said:
Vaughan calling for Bairstow to go to 3 :confused:

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Seems to be a bit of a push on this - Hussain was pushing this line too.

Not for me, and I was open to him opening. But you can have an attacking opener, if you have two strong defensive players at one and three. I just like a real grafter at three, a converted opener or someone like Trott who wants to grind the opposition into the ground. I think you need a defensive three more than you need a defensive opener even.

The Rat said:
Most are mate, India are supposedly the best side in the world, but can't win a series outside of Asia.

Its proved we are a decent side, winning at home is just as important as winning away
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Yes, but lets be real: India have made a much better fist of coming here than we did going there. Ditto the Aussies if we're honest.

For that reason, India are a better side than us imo. But yes, the general point is nobody seems to be able to win away.

The frustrating thing about us is we don't seem to add up to the sum of our parts. We've managed to cook up an extraordinary brew in ODI cricket - but we don't seem to be able to get it together in test. Well, not as much as we could anyway.
 
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Comeback_Kenwyne said:
Seems to be a bit of a push on this - Hussain was pushing this line too.

Not for me, and I was open to him opening. But you can have an attacking opener, if you have two strong defensive players at one and three. I just like a real grafter at three, a converted opener or someone like Trott who wants to grind the opposition into the ground. I think you need a defensive three more than you need a defensive opener even.



Yes, but lets be real: India have made a much better fist of coming here than we did going there. Ditto the Aussies if we're honest.

For that reason, India are a better side than us imo. But yes, the general point is nobody seems to be able to win away.

The frustrating thing about us is we don't seem to add up to the sum of our parts. We've managed to cook up an extraordinary brew in ODI cricket - but we don't seem to be able to get it together in test. Well, not as much as we could anyway.
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Yeah they probably are

But look at our record at home since 2014, it’s excellent
 
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