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How much is the clubs debt?

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Grumpy Old Man said:
Where cash ends up in the accounts depends on the nature of the receipt and payment. Double entry bookkeeping and all that. You have to look at the cash flow in its totality, to assess how the debt is likely to move.

For players, the double entry bookkeeping is along the lines of:

On purchase, debit intangibles, creditors, and as, payments are made, debit creditors, credit cash.
On sales debit debtors, credit profit or loss on sales, and as payments come in debit cash, credit debtors.

Those movements were what I was trying to reflect. On top of that are all the other usual trading cashflows.



My own guess was that at the end of this season debt will be roughly were it was at 31/7/16. The major uncertainty in that guess was the wage bill. Parachute payments will cover only running costs, transfer income will only meet outstanding amounts due from previous transfers.
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Im gonna say what i bet a few on here are thinking.
I dont believe you know anymore about sunderlands finances than the rest of us.
That you copy and paste most of this stuff from the internet.
And that when alls said and done you havnt actually got a clue who owes who what nor how much debt we are actually in.
Id also guess you love the attention that pretending to be some sort of financial guru gets you on here.
We are in debt. No one knows how much except for the muppet who owns the club. Not you, not me not anyone bar him.
Get over yerself.
 
Biggusdickus said:
Im gonna say what i bet a few on here are thinking.
I dont believe you know anymore about sunderlands finances than the rest of us.
That you copy and paste most of this stuff from the internet.
And that when alls said and done you havnt actually got a clue who owes who what nor how much debt we are actually in.
Id also guess you love the attention that pretending to be some sort of financial guru gets you on here.
We are in debt. No one knows how much except for the muppet who owns the club. Not you, not me not anyone bar him.
Get over yerself.
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You can think what you want. I only use figures in the public domain. I interpret them - no more no less. If that offends you, you know where the ignore button is.
 
On Tour said:
Anyone care to summarise?
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Last published accounts were to July 2016, net debt was 87m.

It’s probably changed little since.

We have further money to come in at the end of the season from Pickford, Lens, Borini Khazri and Ndong, which should shave off some of it.

Beyond that we’re pretty fucked - we’re not going to generate profits to clear it and we have no more players of value to sell.

Basically, need somebody to buy the club in a deal that clears the debt, then we can start over.
 
Grumpy Old Man said:
The debt was always in Drumaville. Short simply bought that company from the Irish.
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So Drumaville debt pre-Short was from around a year to 18 months trading and then Short for past ten years? that about right? .. oh, and then same ten years in premier league too? .... sounds like a crap businessman (Short) but we know he isn't as all his other EU based companies make a lot of money. Coincidence?
 
Biggusdickus said:
Im gonna say what i bet a few on here are thinking.
I dont believe you know anymore about sunderlands finances than the rest of us.
That you copy and paste most of this stuff from the internet.
And that when alls said and done you havnt actually got a clue who owes who what nor how much debt we are actually in.
Id also guess you love the attention that pretending to be some sort of financial guru gets you on here.
We are in debt. No one knows how much except for the muppet who owns the club. Not you, not me not anyone bar him.
Get over yerself.
Click to expand...
:lol:
 
Rickybilly said:
@Grumpy Old Man
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The hotel was built by a company called Sunderland FC Hotels Ltd. It's owned by Sunderland FC Developments LLP, which is in turn owned by Wear LLC, which is a Delaware registered company with an address in Texas. There's no direct ownership connection to SAFC; it looks to be a side venture set up by Short and Andersson, although Angela Lowes is on the board, and so were Byrne and Gary the Hair before they left. Short isn't on the board of hotels Ltd, though he is a member of the Developments LLP.

It's only published one set of accounts; they show a loss, but that's not surprising as the hotel wasn't trading by that year end.

MunkyHeed said:
Do they not have to publish every year like? Cos there are no shareholders?
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They do, but the filing deadline is 8 months after the year end. so the accounts for the year ended 31 July last year don't need to be filed until March 31 this year.
 
Thank you GOM - as a fellow accountant I'd like to congratulate you on the clarity of your explanations, because I know it is very difficult to summarise complex trading into a few paragraphs.

To be honest I think it is quite encouraging, and not nearly as bad as I'd thought - bad obviously, but not irredeemable. Clearly Short's £100m sales price aspirations are entirely based on his share cost, and has little to do with the club's real value. The fact he cannot offset his losses against his other trading entities he owns or benefits from must be galling, but as has been stated many times before, his rank bad management of the club deserves little sympathy from us.

I don't know America's tax situation, but if he makes a capital loss in the UK - let's say he sells his shares to our hoped for white knight for (optimistically) £50m, thus generating a c. £50m - £60m capital loss, do you think he might be able to offset this capital loss against capital gains elsewhere?
 
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monty in command said:
Thank you GOM - as a fellow accountant I'd like to congratulate you on the clarity of your explanations, because I know it is very difficult to summarise complex trading into a few paragraphs.

To be honest I think it is quite encouraging, and not nearly as bad as I'd thought - bad obviously, but not irredeemable. Clearly Short's £100m sales price aspirations are entirely based on his share cost, and has little to do with the club's real value. The fact he cannot offset his losses against his other trading entities he owns or benefits from must be galling, but as has been stated many times before, his rank bad management of the club deserves little sympathy from us.

I don't know America's tax situation, but if he makes a capital loss in the UK - let's say he sells his shares to our hoped for white knight for (optimistically) £50m, thus generating a c. £50m - £60m capital loss, do you think he might be able to offset this capital loss against capital gains elsewhere?
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I'd need to ask my wife (no) - she's a specialist in international tax. Much depends on tax treaties, but, unsurprisingly, it's normally quite hard to utilise losses across jurisdictions.
 
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Grumpy Old Man said:
I'd need to ask my wife (no) - she's a specialist in international tax. Much depends on tax treaties, but, unsurprisingly, it's normally quite hard to utilise losses across jurisdictions.
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Thanks - thinking about it, maybe he has capital gains in the UK - he owns or has owned a London property for example - so perhaps he's got UK gains he could offset against? He'll have some very switched on financial advice I'm sure, to mitigate any losses on SAFC as and when these crystallise.
 
Grumpy Old Man said:
The hotel was built by a company called Sunderland FC Hotels Ltd. It's owned by Sunderland FC Developments LLP, which is in turn owned by Wear LLC, which is a Delaware registered company with an address in Texas. There's no direct ownership connection to SAFC; it looks to be a side venture set up by Short and Andersson, although Angela Lowes is on the board, and so were Byrne and Gary the Hair before they left. Short isn't on the board of hotels Ltd, though he is a member of the Developments LLP.

It's only published one set of accounts; they show a loss, but that's not surprising as the hotel wasn't trading by that year end.
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Thanks, @Grumpy Old Man , I'm obliged.
 
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