Plod happy to risk killing an old bloke for a carrying walking stick

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Rick O Shea said:
It wasn't planes - it was a mad, axe-wielding, blind man that brought down the towers.......... if only the NYPD had thought to taser him!
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A blind man is perfectly capable of achieving this

THATS WHAT THIS THREAD HAS TAUGHT ME

In fact, come to think of it, weren't the 9/11 hijackers blind?
 


pavarotti1980 said:
It doesnt back up a single thing you said!

And also a comment from the BBC article

He said the 43-year-old man "acknowledged that his behaviour could have led to people being concerned".

"The man has accepted our apology and does not wish to make a complaint however we will continue to review the situation."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-39070339

He must have been traumatised by the whole event then
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Aye, he was clearly so scared he didn't dare complain about the police in case they zapped him again on his way out of the station

duff_man said:
Might explain why they crashed
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@ProfessionalMackem

Coincidence?!
 
lurker said:
A blind man is perfectly capable of achieving this

THATS WHAT THIS THREAD HAS TAUGHT ME

In fact, come to think of it, weren't the 9/11 hijackers blind?
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Don't get me wrong - I haven't changed my position - I felt a bit of light relief was in order.
 
BlackOps said:
You seem from your posts to possibly, tell me if im wrong believe police do things mostly wrong but you also seem to be willing to discuss it properly unlike some others on here and will find that everyone thinks improvements can be made in policing. Even police commissioners and chief officers will state that hence their work around victim focus as of late.

From your post, there could be the side that officers are using them correctly but it is simply highlighting the amount of times officers are being put in moments of danger which justify their use? Figures have shown that nhs staff are assaulted more often while a lot of the media are not willing to investigate the amount of occasions officers are assaulted. It brings out the old argument that its part of an officers job. Its not part of an officers job to be assaulted at all. Its not part of an officers job to have to defend themselves from being assaulted and if a tool is provided such as taser which allows officers and members of the public to go home safely at night and allows suspected criminals to rightly face justice then why prevent its use?

From experience, i know cops would rather not deploy taser. A lot of them prefer to carry it but would try at all costs to prevent from using it. Its presence is simply enough sometimes.
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I don't think the Police mainly do the wrong thing (I certainly hope not), although I do think that they have dealt with public/troublesome situations poorly over the last 20 years, leading to a poor impression of the force. Imo those issues are caused by a minority of the force. I appreciate that most Police will not want to draw their Taser at all if possible, but it only takes one or two using it a bit "freely" to alter that overall view, especially now that social media allows the whole nation to know about something minor within seconds. Because of that, and the increase in portable recording technology (phones), we tend to see a lot of clips of Police activity where the majority is inappropriate policing. We obviously see a lot less videos of adequate or reasonable policing. That makes it so that the public feel inundated with these stories, even if it is only a small number overall.

The problem, in my opinion, has occurred because too many times the force has defended indefensible situations, which has eroded public opinion over the years. It is then very easy for the public to believe that the police are in the wrong, whether they are or not, as their belief in the police as an organisation is no longer as strong. If the Police were to come out and admit wrongdoing etc more, I think that belief could quickly be rebuilt, as everyone wants to have that childhood image of the police as being there to help.

I certainly wouldn't want a Policeman/woman to be assaulted and if they believe they are at risk of being assaulted they should use whatever means they are allowed to prevent it. I am also certain that most Police use taser and other tactics appropriately. However, when someone doesn't act appropriately, the clamour to defend the wrong-doing is painful and compounds the perception problem as it occurs whether the police acted appropriately or not.

Across the years, I will admit I have personally met a load of knobber Policemen who all gave a bad impression of the force in person or actions, yet the encounter which sticks in my mind above all of them was with brilliant copper who, when he stopped me, simply explained exactly why what I was doing was dangerous and inappropriate. It gave me a point of view I had never thought of, and I would never do the same thing again due to it. He could have arrested me on the spot but found a better way of dealing with it which also resulted in a more positive outcome (me not doing it again). Encouraging more of this type of Policing and holding those good Policeman up as an example against the more visible bad ones would do wonders both internally and for external perception imo.
 
Jardin said:
I don't think the Police mainly do the wrong thing (I certainly hope not), although I do think that they have dealt with public/troublesome situations poorly over the last 20 years, leading to a poor impression of the force. Imo those issues are caused by a minority of the force. I appreciate that most Police will not want to draw their Taser at all if possible, but it only takes one or two using it a bit "freely" to alter that overall view, especially now that social media allows the whole nation to know about something minor within seconds. Because of that, and the increase in portable recording technology (phones), we tend to see a lot of clips of Police activity where the majority is inappropriate policing. We obviously see a lot less videos of adequate or reasonable policing. That makes it so that the public feel inundated with these stories, even if it is only a small number overall.

The problem, in my opinion, has occurred because too many times the force has defended indefensible situations, which has eroded public opinion over the years. It is then very easy for the public to believe that the police are in the wrong, whether they are or not, as their belief in the police as an organisation is no longer as strong. If the Police were to come out and admit wrongdoing etc more, I think that belief could quickly be rebuilt, as everyone wants to have that childhood image of the police as being there to help.

I certainly wouldn't want a Policeman/woman to be assaulted and if they believe they are at risk of being assaulted they should use whatever means they are allowed to prevent it. I am also certain that most Police use taser and other tactics appropriately. However, when someone doesn't act appropriately, the clamour to defend the wrong-doing is painful and compounds the perception problem as it occurs whether the police acted appropriately or not.

Across the years, I will admit I have personally met a load of knobber Policemen who all gave a bad impression of the force in person or actions, yet the encounter which sticks in my mind above all of them was with brilliant copper who, when he stopped me, simply explained exactly why what I was doing was dangerous and inappropriate. It gave me a point of view I had never thought of, and I would never do the same thing again due to it. He could have arrested me on the spot but found a better way of dealing with it which also resulted in a more positive outcome (me not doing it again). Encouraging more of this type of Policing and holding those good Policeman up as an example against the more visible bad ones would do wonders both internally and for external perception imo.
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They should just take a second to think about what they're doing before unleashing a weapon that can be lethal in the wrong circumstances
 
Jardin said:
I don't think the Police mainly do the wrong thing (I certainly hope not), although I do think that they have dealt with public/troublesome situations poorly over the last 20 years, leading to a poor impression of the force. Imo those issues are caused by a minority of the force. I appreciate that most Police will not want to draw their Taser at all if possible, but it only takes one or two using it a bit "freely" to alter that overall view, especially now that social media allows the whole nation to know about something minor within seconds. Because of that, and the increase in portable recording technology (phones), we tend to see a lot of clips of Police activity where the majority is inappropriate policing. We obviously see a lot less videos of adequate or reasonable policing. That makes it so that the public feel inundated with these stories, even if it is only a small number overall.

The problem, in my opinion, has occurred because too many times the force has defended indefensible situations, which has eroded public opinion over the years. It is then very easy for the public to believe that the police are in the wrong, whether they are or not, as their belief in the police as an organisation is no longer as strong. If the Police were to come out and admit wrongdoing etc more, I think that belief could quickly be rebuilt, as everyone wants to have that childhood image of the police as being there to help.

I certainly wouldn't want a Policeman/woman to be assaulted and if they believe they are at risk of being assaulted they should use whatever means they are allowed to prevent it. I am also certain that most Police use taser and other tactics appropriately. However, when someone doesn't act appropriately, the clamour to defend the wrong-doing is painful and compounds the perception problem as it occurs whether the police acted appropriately or not.

Across the years, I will admit I have personally met a load of knobber Policemen who all gave a bad impression of the force in person or actions, yet the encounter which sticks in my mind above all of them was with brilliant copper who, when he stopped me, simply explained exactly why what I was doing was dangerous and inappropriate. It gave me a point of view I had never thought of, and I would never do the same thing again due to it. He could have arrested me on the spot but found a better way of dealing with it which also resulted in a more positive outcome (me not doing it again). Encouraging more of this type of Policing and holding those good Policeman up as an example against the more visible bad ones would do wonders both internally and for external perception imo.
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Very good post. You say about policing over the last 20 years, most of the PC's on my team have less then 3 years service and are only in their early to mid 20's. They werent even born during things like the miners strike and hillsborough which is what a lot of the police haters throw at them! The police as a whole are incomparable to what the force (service) was 20 years ago.
Regarding taser, 99% of coppers don't like using it due to the paperwork involved and then the inevitable fall out afterwards.
There are about 125k - 130k coppers in the UK, with that amount you are always going to get a few who abuse their power etc, the really good sign is that these are getting found out and it is mainly due to honest coppers standing up and speaking out about wrong doing.
 
lurker said:
They should just take a second to think about what they're doing before unleashing a weapon that can be lethal in the wrong circumstances
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I think though mate that even though some may not like the police. It may be said that some based on comments seen here previously that this venture into hatred strangely there also needs to be a little understanding that if the deployment of taser does end up being fatal, this has not almost certainly been down to the officer or even the force. The officer cannot know medical history when using taser and the force need to protect officers and members of the public and it is the best, instant non lethal tool. People using the word lethal and murder to describe its use is quite frankly ignorance
 
lurker said:
They should just take a second to think about what they're doing before unleashing a weapon that can be lethal in the wrong circumstances
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It would seem so in the cases that we see videoed and hitting the news certainly. I guess the question is whether you believe that is the tip of the iceberg, and all the unreported incidents go down the same way or whether you believe that most of the poor incidents are captured on camera or reported these days. I tilt towards the latter camp, after all, where is the fun in videoing or reporting a Policeman doing their job properly?

If you're shouting at someone, you should make sure that they know you mean them before you get a weapon out imo and I'd hope that their investigation is swift and leads to a procedure where they check if the person they are about to shoot is blind and aware they are there or not, so that no-one can fuck it up.

As stated previously, I would prefer a baton out sooner in these situations but I was unaware of the official rankings @pavarotti1980 posted. If someone took out a baton, I'd do what they wanted without the need for chemical or electrical weapons - I'd just now know you were definitely serious! Clearly that isn't procedure, but I'd question why - maybe go to the other order if it was going to actually need you to hit them, but a baton just being "out" is a pretty visible and clear deterrent to defuse a situation imo. It also might have quickly highlighted that this chap was having issues with visible stuff.

I think one major change in perception of policing since I was young to today has been that people now think that the Police regard everyone as guilty until proven innocent. Whilst only a perceptual thing, I know a lot of people, including my mum and dad who have commented similar. Now, whether that is down to increased safety procedures, it providing more effective results, targets etc I don't know but it needs addressing one way or the other. In the 90's I used to live on Merseyside and their Police were "a bit keen", you got a noticeably friendlier approach elsewhere like Yorkshire. I preferred the approach taken elsewhere which left less of a bitter memory.
 
Jardin said:
I don't think the Police mainly do the wrong thing (I certainly hope not), although I do think that they have dealt with public/troublesome situations poorly over the last 20 years, leading to a poor impression of the force. Imo those issues are caused by a minority of the force. I appreciate that most Police will not want to draw their Taser at all if possible, but it only takes one or two using it a bit "freely" to alter that overall view, especially now that social media allows the whole nation to know about something minor within seconds. Because of that, and the increase in portable recording technology (phones), we tend to see a lot of clips of Police activity where the majority is inappropriate policing. We obviously see a lot less videos of adequate or reasonable policing. That makes it so that the public feel inundated with these stories, even if it is only a small number overall.

The problem, in my opinion, has occurred because too many times the force has defended indefensible situations, which has eroded public opinion over the years. It is then very easy for the public to believe that the police are in the wrong, whether they are or not, as their belief in the police as an organisation is no longer as strong. If the Police were to come out and admit wrongdoing etc more, I think that belief could quickly be rebuilt, as everyone wants to have that childhood image of the police as being there to help.

I certainly wouldn't want a Policeman/woman to be assaulted and if they believe they are at risk of being assaulted they should use whatever means they are allowed to prevent it. I am also certain that most Police use taser and other tactics appropriately. However, when someone doesn't act appropriately, the clamour to defend the wrong-doing is painful and compounds the perception problem as it occurs whether the police acted appropriately or not.

Across the years, I will admit I have personally met a load of knobber Policemen who all gave a bad impression of the force in person or actions, yet the encounter which sticks in my mind above all of them was with brilliant copper who, when he stopped me, simply explained exactly why what I was doing was dangerous and inappropriate. It gave me a point of view I had never thought of, and I would never do the same thing again due to it. He could have arrested me on the spot but found a better way of dealing with it which also resulted in a more positive outcome (me not doing it again). Encouraging more of this type of Policing and holding those good Policeman up as an example against the more visible bad ones would do wonders both internally and for external perception imo.
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Couldnt agree more. Some forces dealing with some incidents has been dreadful. Due to poor policy in hiring there will in time be a shift to a younger average age of cops. People who have seen hillsborough unfold etc.
Police forces dont do enough of promoting positive stories of either great policing work or work that can only be described as heroism. Sadly though on this front they have no help. The media dont want to print stories like that and how can you promote positive stories without their help? You cant. Scandals sell papers.

In regards to video cameras being everywhere, cops i know welcome it. They welcome body cameras. It gets rid of false complaints very quickly but any more serious complaints it paints a good picture. What is captured a lot ( or edited a lot) is when action is taken and no one wants to know what happened before that led up to the event. Even when it is clear something has.
 
Jardin said:
It would seem so in the cases that we see videoed and hitting the news certainly. I guess the question is whether you believe that is the tip of the iceberg, and all the unreported incidents go down the same way or whether you believe that most of the poor incidents are captured on camera or reported these days. I tilt towards the latter camp, after all, where is the fun in videoing or reporting a Policeman doing their job properly?

If you're shouting at someone, you should make sure that they know you mean them before you get a weapon out imo and I'd hope that their investigation is swift and leads to a procedure where they check if the person they are about to shoot is blind and aware they are there or not, so that no-one can fuck it up.

As stated previously, I would prefer a baton out sooner in these situations but I was unaware of the official rankings @pavarotti1980 posted. If someone took out a baton, I'd do what they wanted without the need for chemical or electrical weapons - I'd just now know you were definitely serious! Clearly that isn't procedure, but I'd question why - maybe go to the other order if it was going to actually need you to hit them, but a baton just being "out" is a pretty visible and clear deterrent to defuse a situation imo. It also might have quickly highlighted that this chap was having issues with visible stuff.

I think one major change in perception of policing since I was young to today has been that people now think that the Police regard everyone as guilty until proven innocent. Whilst only a perceptual thing, I know a lot of people, including my mum and dad who have commented similar. Now, whether that is down to increased safety procedures, it providing more effective results, targets etc I don't know but it needs addressing one way or the other. In the 90's I used to live on Merseyside and their Police were "a bit keen", you got a noticeably friendlier approach elsewhere like Yorkshire. I preferred the approach taken elsewhere which left less of a bitter memory.
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Impossible to do though. You need to remember that decisions like this are made in a split second whereas an inquest etc can take months to go over everything. If someone points what you believe is a firearm (and in the case this thread stems from even members of the public said they believed it was a firearm) at you then you don't think anything else other wise it is too late.
Plus, believe it or not, some people actually lie to the police
 
sidneyeric said:
Why did he not comply ?
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If your blind and on a train station and cannot see who is around you and you hear a voice shouting get down on the ground and your not actually carrying a gun i doubt you would think they are shouting at you ..........case of pc panic again .
 
pavarotti1980 said:
It's going champion. Called common sense whereas blanket hatred tends to paint some in a pretty bad light


Blind doesn't stop you from hearing an instruction and doing something about it does. Are you suggesting being blind means you also have some sort of inability to hear and understand a question. Pretty bad form that mind think blind equals learning difficulties too...
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No, I'm suggesting being blind makes it more difficult to fully appreciate a situation I it's context.
 
duff_man said:
Impossible to do though. You need to remember that decisions like this are made in a split second whereas an inquest etc can take months to go over everything. If someone points what you believe is a firearm (and in the case this thread stems from even members of the public said they believed it was a firearm) at you then you don't think anything else other wise it is too late.
Plus, believe it or not, some people actually lie to the police
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I wasn't there, but there must be something they can do to protect the disabled whilst keeping us all safe. Was it split-second in this case? I think that if a warning is shouted, you have to be clear that the person is aware it is them being warned, or the warning itself serves or has served no purpose.
 
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